SOA verses CAS Salary Differences

[theplaymaker]

It seems on the DW Simpson Survey that there exists a noticeable difference in compensation for an actuarial student progressing through the CAS track compared to the SOA track. This difference is extremely noticeable upon obtaining FCAS vs FSA. Can anybody explain to me why this noticeable difference in compensation exists?

As a novice actuarial student who will be taking Course 3 this May, it seems as if the CAS track is more appealing (assuming compensation is important consideration). I don't have any propensity to take the SOA or CAS track over the other at this stage in my career.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

Sam

[Westley]

Based purely on my own experience and without any data to back me up, I will hazard a guess:

Consulting actuaries earn more than others (this is well-supported), because they put in the long hours that others do not. The SOA is much larger than the CAS, so this is only meaningful in terms of proportions, but there are more consulting actuaries on the P/C side than life - hence the P/C side has a higher average, even thought comparable positions pay similar salaries. Also, higher proportion of CAS people in reinsurance, which is also higher-paying.

Comp isn't everything, but it matters. I think you can make your money in either track, it's just a matter of finding which you like better.

[theplaymaker]

The funny thing is I just started a job at an insurance company last month in a student program. However, I am not 100% sure I want to go down the SOA track. I guess I need more experience to determine if I like the SOA track.

However, just as a novice observer, the salary differences between P&C and Life/Health on DW Simpson were quite startling!!!! Especially the 90th percentiles for a FCAS with 15+ years experience (360+) verses a FSA (250+)

[joeorez]

Maybe someone who is a fellow in both societies would care to comment on the reasons for the difference. Most of us only know one half of the story.

[bg23516]

I'd be curious about the DW SImpson Webmaster's (Claude?) thoughts on this.

[Take 2]

Just some thoughts:

CAS has far fewer members than SOA. Until about 20 years ago, the need for casualty actuaries was not as widely recognized as for SOA actuaries. Then the NAIC started emphasizing the need for credentialed folks to do the actuarial work. Now most states require CAS credentials, and many state insurance departments have hired CAS actuaries as well.

Because there are still far fewer CAS actuaries, that track is not as well known to the general public as the SOA track. But the CAS demand may be as strong as that for SOA (which at some levels, e.g., experienced life FSAs, actually has a current oversupply), even stronger in some areas. So there may be a greater demand for CAS relative to the supply.

[ThE BlacK ScoRpioN]

(I had replied to this in the Caualty thread but I'm glad to share my answer in the "General Actuarial" section too!)

I think part of it is because we (CAS members) are just plain brighter than these SoA folks. We have to go thru more exams than they do, no "go to a seminar and write to us how it made you feel and we'll give you credits", just plain brains... And given what we have to do, yeah, we need to be significantly more intelligent than them. We're not just counting dead people for a living!

But it's all right, someone has to count the dead people and come up with updated mortality rates, even though they don't change much. That 0.00001 decrease in qx is what will keep'em in business!!!

[TwistedMentat]

Scorp,

I did not mind your posting in the P/C forum, because the others probably never look there anyway. However, you really should not be giving away our trade secrets in the General forum.

[Roasted Almond]

I think part of it is because we (CAS members) are just plain brighter than these SoA folks. We have to go thru more exams than they do, no "go to a seminar and write to us how it made you feel and we'll give you credits".

hmmmm...I wouldn't agree...I don't think this sort of comparision b/w SoA and CAS exams is fair.

http://www.actuary.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7892

(In b/w, I'm a CASer :roll: )

JMO

[ThE BlacK ScoRpioN]

Yeah but that cutesy seminar has a little cutesy pre-test with a verrrrry high pass rate. Then, they spend a weekend in a hotel somewhere with a laptop, and again, verrrrrry high pass rate. I don't care about the number of hours the exams last but this ain't similar to an exam. The path to FCAS has a couple more exams - just fair we get paid more. :D

[Roasted Almond]

The path to FCAS has a couple more exams

This statement is based on the presumption that "SoA written 5,6,8" and "CAS written 5,6 & 7" are exactly/almost identical (may be w.r.t Syllabi length & the level of difficulty). I seriously doubt it, everything else being same, I find it hard to believe that the amount of material SoA tests in a 5.5/6.5 or even more hrs exam is almost similar (or comparable) to any single CAS's four hours exam. (Not to mention, most likely much greater)

I don't care about the number of hours the exams last but this ain't similar to an exam.

Yup, agreed, but a 6.5 hr SoA exam also won't be similar to a CAS 4 hour exam. (Most likely much lengthier in Syllabus)


mmm...I'm not very confident about the Pre-2000 (and more older) SoA and CAS exam systems, But I guess before 2000 (and may be before 95), SoA had more exams (100,200,300 and 400 series exams) than CAS, and if we make "The number of exams" as the criteria for salary, you mean that a Pre-2000 FSA should be paid more than a Pre-2000 FCAS?

[The Drunken Actuary]

(I had replied to this in the Caualty thread but I'm glad to share my answer in the "General Actuarial" section too!)

I think part of it is because we (CAS members) are just plain brighter than these SoA folks. We have to go thru more exams than they do, no "go to a seminar and write to us how it made you feel and we'll give you credits", just plain brains... And given what we have to do, yeah, we need to be significantly more intelligent than them. We're not just counting dead people for a living!

But it's all right, someone has to count the dead people and come up with updated mortality rates, even though they don't change much. That 0.00001 decrease in qx is what will keep'em in business!!!Sounds like someone's a little jealous.

[Maxine]

However, just as a novice observer, the salary differences between P&C and Life/Health on DW Simpson were quite startling!!!! Especially the 90th percentiles for a FCAS with 15+ years experience (360+) verses a FSA (250+)
Is Bermuda included in the study? CASers in Bermuda often skew the survey.

[DW Simpson]

Yep, Bermuda is included. Removing Bermuda has little to no material effect on the numbers since there are less than 100 designated actuaries there. I coincidentally just looked at that.

[Maine-iac]

The path to FCAS has a couple more exams

This statement is based on the presumption that "SoA written 5,6,8" and "CAS written 5,6 & 7" are exactly/almost identical (may be w.r.t Syllabi length & the level of difficulty). I seriously doubt it, everything else being same, I find it hard to believe that the amount of material SoA tests in a 5.5/6.5 or even more hrs exam is almost similar (or comparable) to any single CAS's four hours exam. (Not to mention, most likely much greater)

I don't care about the number of hours the exams last but this ain't similar to an exam.

Yup, agreed, but a 6.5 hr SoA exam also won't be similar to a CAS 4 hour exam. (Most likely much lengthier in Syllabus)


mmm...I'm not very confident about the Pre-2000 (and more older) SoA and CAS exam systems, But I guess before 2000 (and may be before 95), SoA had more exams (100,200,300 and 400 series exams) than CAS, and if we make "The number of exams" as the criteria for salary, you mean that a Pre-2000 FSA should be paid more than a Pre-2000 FCAS?

Heck, I got my FSA pre-2000 when the SOA had TONS of exams, and I'm working on the FCAS under the current CAS series, so I should be making a FORTUNE!!! :D :D :D

Seriously, though, I don't find the CAS exams to be easier or more difficult than the pre-2000 SOA exams were. They both involve challenging topics and boring topics, require seemingly endless hours of studying, require struggling with occasionaly poorly written, nearly incomprehensible, or even erroneous texts and study notes. The amount of effort is very comparable.

Although it is possible, I really doubt the SOA has made the syllabus easier since I stopped taking SOA exams.

ALTHOUGH I DID WALK 5 MILES UPHILL BOTH WAYS IN THE SNOW TO TAKE THOSE SUCKERS!

[Brad Gile]

Although it is possible, I really doubt the SOA has made the syllabus easier since I stopped taking SOA exams.

ALTHOUGH I DID WALK 5 MILES UPHILL BOTH WAYS IN THE SNOW TO TAKE THOSE SUCKERS!

You only did 5 miles? Why, I did TEN miles - barefoot! :D

Brad
60 and not looking back

[Maxine]

I coincidentally just looked at that.
:D I recalled that at my previous employer that they had done a study of actuarial salaries around the world, and Bermuda was off the charts. :o

[DW Simpson]

Sure, Bermuda is higher. An actuary asked us to look at reinsurance compensation in the Northeast/Bermuda area for FCAS's in the last 2 cells of our survey, the 9.5-14.5 years of experience cell, and the 14.5+ years cell. On our survey, FCAS 9.5-14.5 is 115-226K, salary+bonus, 10th-90th percentile. 14.5+ is 121-360K. Here's how I responded:

From the original compensation survey data, looking only at the reinsurance actuaries, the 10th percentile is roughly 10% higher than all of the data combined for the 9.5-14.5 cell. The 90th percentile is 20% higher than all of the data. Absent other qualitative factors, my best guess for a 10th-90th percentile range for reinsurance only, which is almost entirely NE/Bermuda, is 125-270K, salary+bonus.

For 14.5+ years of experience, the 90th percentile seems to be dampened, so my best approximation is boosting the range around 10% at the bottom and top ends, so for the 10th-90th percentile for reinsurance only, is 135-390K, salary+bonus.

And my best guess at Bermuda reinsurance only, excluding Northeast reinsurance, are these same ranges. We exclude the Bermuda housing allowance in the compensation figures, so that might be one of the differences in our respective surveys.

Because there are so few Bermuda actuaries, backing them out of the data wouldn't have a material effect.

[TwistedMentat]

ALTHOUGH I DID WALK 5 MILES UPHILL BOTH WAYS IN THE SNOW TO TAKE THOSE SUCKERS!
And you LIKED it!

[kazh]

(I had replied to this in the Caualty thread but I'm glad to share my answer in the "General Actuarial" section too!)

I think part of it is because we (CAS members) are just plain brighter than these SoA folks. We have to go thru more exams than they do, no "go to a seminar and write to us how it made you feel and we'll give you credits", just plain brains... And given what we have to do, yeah, we need to be significantly more intelligent than them. We're not just counting dead people for a living!

But it's all right, someone has to count the dead people and come up with updated mortality rates, even though they don't change much. That 0.00001 decrease in qx is what will keep'em in business!!!

lessee -- the group that chose the path with the most exams wins?