Six figures to turn your kids into spoiled brats

[true progressive]

The mainstream media see's no problem with this dissent, UNLESS you're truly oppressed and rail against an Evil Empire (e.g., the Chinese woman who was trashed by the media when she spoke out against the communist Chinese leader recently)

************************************************** **

Fear and Loathing at Commencement
Condi Rice, John McCain, and spoiled brats.

By Rich Lowry

What a bargain: At a cost of a mere $100,000 or so, a northeastern college can take your child and transform him into a delicate flower incapable of handling opinions at odds with his own. It can close his mind and vacuum-seal it against opposing views. And it can, as a bonus, perhaps make him rude and incorrigible.

These have been the benefits of liberal education on display this commencement season, as graduating students have risen up against the affront of having to listen to the U.S. secretary of State or a distinguished war hero for a half-hour or so. Students complain that Condoleezza Rice and Sen. John McCain don’t represent them. But since when has it been a requirement that speakers on campus be representative of—in the sense of totally agreeing with—student views? If there were such a requirement, few commencement addresses would ever be given by anyone to the right of filmmaker Michael Moore.

Students at the liberal New School in New York City circulated a petition to have McCain disinvited as the commencement speaker. “McCain does not speak for me,” they declared. Well, of course not. No one would ever mistake the (mostly) conservative senator from Arizona as a mouthpiece for the flagrantly tattooed and pierced left-wingers who attend the Greenwich Village college. But why would they only want to hear someone saying things that they already thought and believed?

The slogan was similar at Boston College, where students objecting to Condi Rice getting an honorary degree and delivering the commencement address said, “Not in my name.” That phrase makes it sound as though some atrocity were being committed. The anti-Rice students maintain that her support of the Iraq war violates the Catholic teachings to which the Jesuit college is devoted. But the Vatican has never formally condemned the Iraq war. Protesters would be on firmer ground objecting to Rice’s pro-choice position on abortion, but respecting unborn life is a fundamental Catholic teaching that no one bothered to mention.

All the rhetoric about “not speaking for me” and “not in my name” indicates a certain self-obsession. At the New School it was in full flower. As McCain spoke about the lessons of his life, students yelled, “It’s not about you!” and “It’s about my life, not yours!” Apparently what they wanted to hear was: “I’m here to tell you that every unexamined prejudice you hold is absolutely correct. You represent the summit of human wisdom, and in all the years you have left on this Earth, you will never learn anything important that you don’t already know as a snotty 21-year-old. And don’t let anyone ever dare to tell you otherwise.”

McCain’s speech was largely a self-effacing account of his own folly as an arrogant, know-it-all youth. Students who heckled and turned their backs on the senator as he delivered this message must recognize irony only when it appears on The Daily Show With Jon Stewart. The point of turning your back on someone is to demonstrate a fundamental disrespect. Students at BC were far and away better behaved than the New School mob, but some of them did the same to Rice. It is a gesture appropriate in response to a member of the Klan, but when applied to McCain or Rice, it says more about the protester than the speaker.

It’s not surprising that students are sophomoric, even if, as graduates, they are supposed to be beyond that. But faculty at both schools joined in the agitation. The opposition to Rice at BC was jump-started by a faculty letter, and some New School faculty turned their backs on McCain. It is these sort of professors who set the tone at top colleges. They act like a medieval guild protecting a monopoly on thought. Dissenting points of view send them into an angry, defensive crouch.

And just think: For a substantial fee, they will mold the mind of your child.

[bokiz333]

and there is something wrong with this? The same education opens their minds and allows them to think for themselves so they should not be attacked for choosing not to listen to a speech. I did't attend my college graduation because I was't happy with certain aspects of the college (non-academic) so it was my own mini-protest; mainly I did not want to celebrate graduating from a school I am no longer proud to be an alumni of; but I digress.........

back to the topic, these students should and do have every right to walk out if they so choose. Personally (at least for one of the two speakers) I would have done the same (have I attended)

[Pseudolus]

As I said above, without any school officials leading it, it is probably legal. Just inappropriate and exclusionary. It is not possible that everyone at the graduation was comfortable with the overt religious expression. Just because something is legal does not make it right..

[Eimon Gnome]

OK, I'm missing what the problem is here. Some news: Politician gets political reaction. wow, what a show stopper.

Maybe the point is that kids should learn to politely nod and grin, no matter what is said by their elders. Never use bad words, and be gentle on the feelings of others. Geez, when did the right adopt Political Correctness into their platform. I must have missed a speech or two.

[whisper]

:yawn:
Yeah, these kids were perfect little angels prior to being subjected into the evil clutches of the liberal college system and corrupted!

[ShebaPoe]

well, it's funny and sad in a way to think that starting soon after graduation, there will be little in the way of opportunity for these gradautes to protest in any meaningful way the activities of an important political figure.

More interestingly, the division of society continues to harm almost everyone.

[MNBridge]

This may be the biggest piece of trash I have ever seen written.

If a child disagrees with the (R) then he must have been brainwashed by the school??

No one to the right of Michael Moore? HUH?

The Nat'l Enquirier has more clout than this article.

[MNBridge]

It is a gesture appropriate in response to a member of the Klan, but when applied to McCain or Rice, it says more about the protester than the speaker.


So feel free to be rude, just only to those we approve of you being rude to.

[MNBridge]

the flagrantly tattooed and pierced

All people with tatoos and piecings are bad!

I could go on and on with this thing.

[Happy Extinction]

What are you blathering on about?

[EweTupper]

The mainstream media see's no problem with this dissent, UNLESS you're truly oppressed and rail against an Evil Empire (e.g., the Chinese woman who was trashed by the media when she spoke out against the communist Chinese leader recently)Are you referring to Wenyi Wang, the protestor who was removed from the Bush-Hu press conference? If I remember correctly, that woman was removed by secret service agents, NOT "the mainstream media".

[true progressive]

and there is something wrong with this?

If you don't understand what's wrong with this, you have a great deal of growing up to do. John McCain and Condi Rice deserve respect, they were invited guests. Especially John McCain, I disagree with him politically, but he was tortured beyond all of our comprehensions while serving his country and defending our freedoms.

If you do not understand why you DO NOT stand up and turn your back on him, you sir are a complete and utter moron.

I agree Whisper, they were probably snoty little rude liberal ****s before hand.

[The President]

Especially John McCain, I disagree with him politically, but he was tortured beyond all of our comprehensions while serving his country and defending our freedoms.Yeah, and Bush was a complete angel to McCain in 2000.

[Lucy]

So feel free to be rude, just only to those we approve of you being rude to.Yeah, that was kind of my reaction to the article. I wouldn't have done that to either of the people mentioned, but if you really have a moral problem with them speaking at your commencement, that seems like a reasonable response. It shows your dismay without interferring with anyone else's right to hear them speak.

I bet they're both really good public speakers. . . not that that has anything to do with the price of tea, but so many commencement speakers are dull as ditchwater.

[fallout]

Yeah, and Bush was a complete angel to McCain in 2000.


Now you are using bush as your role model?

[Eimon Gnome]

Now you are using bush as your role model?
I'll bet not.

[SamTheEagle]

and there is something wrong with this? The same education opens their minds and allows them to think for themselves so they should not be attacked for choosing not to listen to a speech. I did't attend my college graduation because I was't happy with certain aspects of the college (non-academic) so it was my own mini-protest; mainly I did not want to celebrate graduating from a school I am no longer proud to be an alumni of; but I digress.........

back to the topic, these students should and do have every right to walk out if they so choose. Personally (at least for one of the two speakers) I would have done the same (have I attended)

I'd be ashamed, too, if I left college without knowing that it should be "alumnus". (Assuming you're a man, of course).

[bokiz333]

I'd be ashamed, too, if I left college without knowing that it should be "alumnus". (Assuming you're a man, of course).

Well since English is my THIRD languange, I hope you, master of all things that are writen, will excuse my occassional (actualy more like persistent) mispelling and grammar mistakes.

P.S. I might have woken up on the wrong side of the bed today.

[fallout]

Well since English is my THIRD languange, I hope you, master of all things that are writen, will excuse my occassional (actualy more like persistent) mispelling and grammar mistakes.

P.S. I might have woken up on the wrong side of the bed today.


Which side was that?

[bokiz333]

If you don't understand what's wrong with this, you have a great deal of growing up to do. John McCain and Condi Rice deserve respect, they were invited guests. Especially John McCain, I disagree with him politically, but he was tortured beyond all of our comprehensions while serving his country and defending our freedoms.

If you do not understand why you DO NOT stand up and turn your back on him, you sir are a complete and utter moron.

I agree Whisper, they were probably snoty little rude liberal ****s before hand.

Are you kidding me?!? Because you can NOT be serious. I have lived through 4 years of war, witnessed people being shot, lived in a bomb shelter for a while, relocated over 20 times due to war, was lined up to be shot at one point and then released, changed continents, etc.. (just a small sample of my life) so I don't mean to be a pompous a$$ but I think I have experienced a few things that you can't even fathom so I think I might have a different point of view that you. If you think that you can judge me based on your ethnocentric and narrow-minded views, you are fooling yourself. But based on many previous posts, denial seems to be a permanent state of mind for you.

BTW, I am an independed because I had no preconceived notions when I moved to United States (a while back) and that enabled me to realize that having blind ties to either party is ridiculous. I vote for whoever is less incompetent to run the country and try not to be swayed by the overwhelming amount of propaganda and lies that are disseminated. Since I can only assume that someone with such poor reasoning skills and judgmental views is a rightie, I can see how you blindly accept whatever your party spoon feeds you and then you treat that as gospel. I try to be a model citizen and believe that this is the greatest country in the world, if I didn't I now have the means to move but I choose to stay. With that said, if Rice would be elected president (A hypothetical situation of course) I would move to another country because she and others like her whom I shall not name, personify all that is wrong with today’s society and politics.

Thank you that will be all until I have had my coffee and something to eat.

[fallout]

Are you kidding me?!? Because you can NOT be serious. I have lived through 4 years of war, witnessed people being shot, lived in a bomb shelter for a while, relocated over 20 times due to war, was lined up to be shot at one point and then released, changed continents, etc.. (just a small sample of my life) so I don't mean to be a pompous a$$ but I think I have experienced a few things that you can't even fathom so I think I might have a different point of view that you. If you think that you can judge me based on your ethnocentric and narrow-minded views, you are fooling yourself. But based on many previous posts, denial seems to be a permanent state of mind for you.

BTW, I am an independed because I had no preconceived notions when I moved to United States (a while back) and that enabled me to realize that having blind ties to either party is ridiculous. I vote for whoever is less incompetent to run the country and try not to be swayed by the overwhelming amount of propaganda and lies that are disseminated. Since I can only assume that someone with such poor reasoning skills and judgmental views is a rightie, I can see how you blindly accept whatever your party spoon feeds you and then you treat that as gospel. I try to be a model citizen and believe that this is the greatest country in the world, if I didn't I now have the means to move but I choose to stay. With that said, if Rice would be elected president (A hypothetical situation of course) I would move to another country because she and others like her whom I shall not name, personify all that is wrong with today’s society and politics.

Thank you that will be all until I have had my coffee and something to eat.

I do not believe you. I do not believe you are indeoendant and would move to another country if Condi becamse president.

You might be telling the truth, but I doubt it.

[MountainHawk]

This may be the biggest piece of trash I have ever seen written.

If a child disagrees with the (R) then he must have been brainwashed by the school??

No one to the right of Michael Moore? HUH?

The Nat'l Enquirier has more clout than this article.
Beautiful inconsistency in 24 hours.


If it's right-leaning students praying, they should have shut up and not be rude. If it's left leaning student protesting, it's perfectly ok.

I'm surprised your head doesn't explode from trying to remember all your inconsistent opinions.

[EweTupper]

I vote for whoever is less incompetent to run the country . . .excellent

Reminds me of my favorite political quote:
"I come in peace," it said, adding after a long moment of further grinding, "take me to your Lizard."

Ford Prefect, of course, had an explanation for this . . .

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."

"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"

"No," said Ford, [. . .] "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

"I did," said ford. "It is."

"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"

"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. [. . .]"

[. . .]
"Tell me about the lizards."

Ford shrugged again.

"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."

[bokiz333]

I do not believe you. I do not believe you are indeoendant and would move to another country if Condi becamse president.

You might be telling the truth, but I doubt it.


Because I am an independed I have been really let down by the current administration. Like many people I was indifferent and undecided between Bush and Gore so I by no means despised the current administration in the beginning. With every gross incompetence, lie, and mistake I became more enraged and realized that this is the worst president we have ever had (I might be biased because the other candidates did not serve during my lifetime).

About the move thing, well you'd be wrong, but mainly because I kind of cheated..........I already own a house in Europe (will not specify the country but it is in the Mediterranian area and it is located about 30 miles from a sea) so there is a good chance that I would just up and leave and stay there for her term. I would move back after she was no longer president.

[fallout]

Because I am an independed I have been really let down by the current administration. Like many people I was indifferent and undecided between Bush and Gore so I by no means despised the current administration in the beginning. With every gross incompetence, lie, and mistake I became more enraged and realized that this is the worst president we have ever had (I might be biased because the other candidates did not serve during my lifetime).

About the move thing, well you'd be wrong, but mainly because I kind of cheated..........I already own a house in Europe (will not specify the country but it is in the Mediterranian area and it is located about 30 miles from a sea) so there is a good chance that I would just up and leave and stay there for her term. I would move back after she was no longer president.


I am surprised anyone can feel that strongly about politics in America. In the end the dems and the reps are pretty well the same thing. <shrug>

[Iranian Uranium]

About the move thing, well you'd be wrong, but mainly because I kind of cheated..........I already own a house in Europe (will not specify the country but it is in the Mediterranian area and it is located about 30 miles from a sea) so there is a good chance that I would just up and leave and stay there for her term. I would move back after she was no longer president.If you promise to stay there, I'll help you pack.

[bokiz333]

If you promise to stay there, I'll help you pack.

No thanks, you'd probably just send your younger brother who would show up late, mess things up, steal a $20 and then later you'd tell me what a great job you guys did.

[Mr. Penguin]

No thanks, you'd probably just send your younger brother who would show up late, mess things up, steal a $20 and then later you'd tell me what a great job you guys did.

:notworth:

[Iranian Uranium]

No thanks, you'd probably just send your younger brother who would show up late, mess things up, steal a $20 and then later you'd tell me what a great job you guys did.That is a complete lie. He'd steal much more than $20.

[horace goldfarb]

Rich Lowry is a flaming hypocrite. I really want to hire Noam Chomsky to give the commencement speech at his kid's graduation. And then when his kid protests, I hope he writes another article about how kids should pipe down and respect their elders.

[true progressive]

Are you kidding me?!? Because you can NOT be serious.

No and I'm completely serious.

I have lived through 4 years of war, witnessed people being shot, lived in a bomb shelter for a while, relocated over 20 times due to war, was lined up to be shot at one point and then released, changed continents, etc.. (just a small sample of my life)

Imagine volunteering for even worse, that's what John McCain did. The students yelled over him. They raised signs over their heads, SOMETHING HE CAN'T DO BECAUSE HE WAS TORTURED SO BADLY FOR FIVE YEARS IN HELL, DEFENDING FREEDOMS OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T EVEN U.S. CITIZENS YET... I.E., YOU.

so I don't mean to be a pompous a$$

Probably comes quite natural.

but I think I have experienced a few things that you can't even fathom so I think I might have a different point of view that you. If you think that you can judge me based on your ethnocentric and narrow-minded views, you are fooling yourself.

Oh spare me. I have no problem fathoming those things, John McCain fought to end those sufferings on people.

BTW, I am an independed because I had no preconceived notions when I moved to United States (a while back) and that enabled me to realize that having blind ties to either party is ridiculous.

I'm open to either party's candidates for office.

Since I can only assume that someone with such poor reasoning skills and judgmental views is a rightie, I can see how you blindly accept whatever your party spoon feeds you and then you treat that as gospel.

Ya, spoken like a true independent. And no, you're not judgemental at all. But if you've read my posts, certainly you've noticed I'm not happy with Bush or either party. You've got poor reasoning AND poor reading skills.

I try to be a model citizen and believe that this is the greatest country in the world, if I didn't I now have the means to move but I choose to stay. With that said, if Rice would be elected president (A hypothetical situation of course) I would move to another country because she and others like her whom I shall not name, personify all that is wrong with today’s society and politics.


Condi Rice is a great American and exemplifies the power of diversity. SHE's the one that didn't accept what was spoon fed to her, she was independent and let her principles guide her. You'll move to another country if elected president??? You're not independent, you're as far left as they come.

I'm closed minded according to you, but I'm for Condi in '08 and she's pro-abortion and I'm very anti-abortion. But unlike you, I have an open mind and accept other points of view. I'm not a bigot like you.

One point of clarification, I'm not saying McCain and Rice are above criticism. I'm critical of McCain, but commencement is the wrong time and place. It's a celebration of accomplishment, numerous people of all points of view are invited to take part. A small percent of disgruntled immature brats should not ruin it for everyone else. It's not the appropriate time and place for political discourse.

Now, I'm glad to see Bob Kerry (another war hero) is taking action against these idiots. BTW, they called him a war criminal at the commencement. Nice.

Just one last thing. I've seen people shot too, and my upbringing was no bed of roses. I don't think that makes me more qualified to express my views on this subject than those who haven't. I'm not sure what it has to do with anything. And if you see Condi Rice as a threat to you, I strongly suspect your story of oppression is b.s.

Now, I'm skipping breakfast this morning... ate too much watching American Idol last night...

[bokiz333]

No and I'm completely serious.



Imagine volunteering for even worse, that's what John McCain did. The students yelled over him. They raised signs over his head, SOMETHING HE CAN'T DO BECAUSE HE WAS TORTURED SO BADLY FOR FIVE YEARS IN HELL, DEFENDING FREEDOMS OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T EVEN U.S. CITIZENS YET... I.E., YOU.



Probably comes quite natural.



Oh spare me. I have no problem fathoming those things, John McCain fought to end those sufferings on people.



I'm open to either party's candidates for office.



Ya, spoken like a true independent. And no, you're not judgemental at all. But if you've read my posts, certainly you've noticed I'm not happy with Bush or either party.



Condi Rice is a great American and exemplifies the power of diversity. SHE's the one that didn't accept what was spoon fed to her, she was independent and let her principles guide her. You'll move to another country if elected president??? You're not independent, you're as far left as they come.

I'm closed minded according to you, but I'm for Condi in '08 and she's pro-abortion and I'm very anti-abortion. But unlike you, I have an open mind and accept other points of view. I'm not a bigot like you.

Just one last thing. I've seen people shot too, and my upbringing was no bed of roses. I don't think that makes me more qualified to express my views on this subject than those who haven't. I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

Now, I'm skipping breakfast this morning... ate too much watching American Idol last night...

Well I am glad you retain the right to judge people because of McCain experiences. Also, why did you automaticaly assume that I am not an american citizen (if you read my posts about voting you'd know that I would have to be a citizen - but since I didn't spell that out for you from the start I shouldn't have expected you to grasp that)


Please find a single post, and only have about 60-70 post ever so it shouoldn't be too hard even for you, that would imply that I am a bigot?!? I don't even see how that came into play???? You seem to be implying that race or ethnicity had anything to do with my dislike for her. Wow, that seems like a big jump to make when I never EVER said anything remotely close to that. But go ahead, take a page out of Bushes book, and totally muddle the point so we're no longer talking about the issue at hand. Almost got it down to a science.

P.S. Not that it matters, since I don't judge peple on ethnicity or race, but I myself am a "minority" so I certainly do not discriminate against others. I am betting though that you, on the other hand, are probably a white male in his 40's.

[bokiz333]

Picture of competence............




LEHMAN: Were you told that there were numerous young Arab males in flight training, had taken flight training, were in flight training?

RICE: I was not. And I'm not sure that that was known at the center. LEHMAN: Were you told that the U.S. Marshal program had been changed to drop any U.S. marshals on domestic flights?

RICE: I was not told that.

LEHMAN: Were you told that the red team in FAA -- the red teams for 10 years had reported their hard data that the U.S. airport security system never got higher than 20 percent effective and was usually down around 10 percent for 10 straight years?

RICE: To the best of my recollection, I was not told that.

LEHMAN: Were you aware that INS had been lobbying for years to get the airlines to drop the transit without visa loophole that enabled terrorists and illegals to simply buy a ticket through the transit-without- visa-waiver and pay the airlines extra money and come in?

RICE: I learned about that after September 11.

LEHMAN: Were you aware that the INS had quietly, internally, halved its internal security enforcement budget?

RICE: I was not made aware of that. I don't remember being made aware of that, no.

LEHMAN: Were you aware that it was the U.S. government established policy not to question or oppose the sanctuary policies of New York, Los Angeles, Houston, Chicago, San Diego for political reasons, which policy in those cities prohibited the local police from cooperating at all with federal immigration authorities?

RICE: I do not believe I was aware of that.

LEHMAN: Were you aware -- to shift a little bit to Saudi Arabia -- were you aware of the program that was well established that allowed Saudi citizens to get visas without interviews?

RICE: I learned of that after 9/11.

LEHMAN: Were you aware of the activities of the Saudi ministry of religious affairs here in the United States during that transition?

RICE: I believe that only after September 11 did the full extent of what was going on with the ministry of religious affairs became evident.

LEHMAN: Were you aware of the extensive activities of the Saudi government in supporting over 300 radical teaching schools and mosques around the country, including right here in the United States?

RICE: I believe we've learned a great deal more about this and addressed it with the Saudi government since 9/11.

LEHMAN: Were you aware at the time of the fact that Saudi Arabia had and were you told that they had in their custody the CFO and the closest confidant of al Qaeda -- of Osama bin Laden, and refused direct access to the United States?

RICE: I don't remember anything of that kind.

LEHMAN: Were you aware that they would not cooperate and give us access to the perpetrators of the Khobar Towers attack?

RICE: I was very involved in issues concerning Khobar Towers and our relations with several governments concerning Khobar Towers.

LEHMAN: Thank you.

Were you aware -- and it disturbs me a bit, and again, let me shift to the continuity issues here.

Were you aware that it was the policy of the Justice Department -- and I'd like you to comment as to whether these continuities are still in place -- before I go to Justice, were you aware that it was the policy and I believe remains the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory?

RICE: No, I have to say that the kind of inside arrangements for the FAA are not really in my...

LEHMAN: Well, these are not so inside.

Were you aware that the FAA up until 9/11 thought it was perfectly permissible to allow four-inch knife blades aboard?

RICE: I was not aware.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/08/rice.transcript/

[Iranian Uranium]

P.S. Not that it matters, since I don't judge peple on ethnicity or race, but I myself am a "minority" so I certainly do not discriminate against others. I am betting though that you, on the other hand, are probably a white male in his 40's.Sometime you should ask a Korean shopkeeper in LA if members of one minority group could ever discriminate against the mebers of another minority group.

[true progressive]

Bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices


if Rice would be elected president (A hypothetical situation of course) I would move to another country because she and others like her whom I shall not name, personify all that is wrong with today’s society and politics.


The other inaccuracies of you post are too obvious for response.

[bokiz333]

[QUOTE=true progressive]Bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
QUOTE]

Excellent, you seem to know how to work a dictionary.

[true progressive]

RICE: I certainly believe that that has changed, Commissioner Lehman.

Let me just go back for one second, though, on the long list of questions that you asked.

I think another structural problem for the United States is that we really didn't have anyone trying to put together all of the kinds of issues that you raised, about what we were doing with INS, what we were doing with borders, what we were doing with visas, what we were doing with airport security. And that's the reason that, first, the Homeland Security Council, and then Tom Ridge's initial job, and then the Homeland Security Department is so important, because you can then look at the whole spectrum of protecting our borders from all kinds of threats and say, what kinds of policies make sense and what kinds of policies don't?

And they now actually have someone who looks at critical infrastructure protection, looks at airport security, understands in greater detail than I think the national security adviser could ever understand all of the practices of what is going on in transportation security. That's why it is important that we made the change that we did.

As to some of the questions concerning the Saudis: I think that we have had, really, very good cooperation with Saudi Arabia since 9/11, and since the May 12th attacks on Riyadh even greater cooperation, because Saudi Arabia is I think fully enlisted in the war on terrorism. And we need to understand that there were certain things that we didn't even understand were going on inside the United States.

RICE: It's not terribly surprising that the Saudis didn't understand some of the things that were going on in their country.

As to your last question, though, I think that that's actually where we've had the biggest change. The president doesn't think of this as law enforcement. He thinks of this as war.

And for all of the rhetoric of war prior to 9/11 -- people who said we're at war with the jihadist network, people who said that they've declared war on us and we're at war with them -- we weren't at war. We weren't on war footing. We weren't behaving in that way.

We were still very focused on rendition of terrorists, on law enforcement. And, yes, from time to time we did military plans, or use the cruise missile strike here or there, but we did not have a sustained systematic effort to destroy al Qaeda, to deal with those who harbored al Qaeda.

One of the points that the president made in his very first speech on the night of September 11 was that it's not just the terrorists, it's those who harbor them, too. And he put states on notice that they were going to be responsible if they sponsor terrorists or if they acquiesced in terrorists being there.

And when he said, "I want to bring them to justice," again, I think there was a little bit of nervousness about talking about exactly what that means.

But I don't think there's anyone in America who doesn't understand that this president believes that we're at war, it's a war we have to win, and that it is a war that cannot be fought on the defensive. It's a war that has to be fought on the offense.

LEHMAN: Thank you. Are you sure that the...

KEAN: Last question, Secretary.

LEHMAN: As a last question, tell us what you really recommend we should address our attentions to to fix this as the highest priority. Not just moving boxes around, but what can you tell us in public here that we could do, since we are outside the legislature and outside the executive branch and can bring the focus of attention for change? Tell us what you recommend we do.

RICE: My greatest concern is that, as September 11 recedes from memory, that we will begin to unlearn the lessons of what we've learned.

RICE: And I think this commission can be very important in helping us to focus on those lessons and then to make sure that the structures of government reflect those lessons, because those structures of government now are going to have to last us for a very long time.

I think we've done, under the president's leadership, we've done extremely important structural change. We've reorganized the government in a greater way than has been done since the 1947 National Security Act created the Department of Defense, the CIA and the National Security Council.

I think that we need to -- we have a major reorganization of the FBI, where Bob Mueller is trying very hard not to just move boxes but to change incentives, to change culture. Those are all very hard things to do.

I think there have been very important changes made between the CIA and FBI. Yes, everybody knew that they had trouble sharing, but in fact, we had legal restrictions to their sharing. And George Tenet and Louis Freeh and others have worked very hard at that. But until the Patriot Act, we couldn't do what we needed to do.

And now I hear people who question the need for the Patriot Act, question whether or not the Patriot Act is infringing on our civil liberties. I think that you can address this hard question of the balance that we as an open society need to achieve between the protection of our country and the need to remain the open society, the welcoming society that we are. And I think you're in a better position to address that than anyone.

And I do want you to know that when you have addressed it, the president is not going to just be interested in the recommendations. I think he's going to be interested in knowing how we can press forward in ways that will make us safer.

The other thing that I hope you will do is to take a look back again at the question that keeps arising. I think Senator Gorton was going after this question. I've heard Senator Kerrey talk about it, which is, you know, the country, like democracies do, waited and waited and waited as this threat gathered.

RICE: And we didn't respond by saying, "We're at war with them. Now we're going to use all means of our national assets to go against them." There are other threats that gather against us.

And what we should have learned from September 11 is that you have to be bold and you have to be decisive and you have to be on the offensive, because we're never going to be able to completely defend.

LEHMAN: Thank you very much.

[ShebaPoe]

Are you kidding me?!? Because you can NOT be serious. I have lived through 4 years of war, witnessed people being shot, lived in a bomb shelter for a while, relocated over 20 times due to war, was lined up to be shot at one point and then released, changed continents, etc.. (just a small sample of my life) so I don't mean to be a pompous a$$ but I think I have experienced a few things that you can't even fathom so I think I might have a different point of view that you. If you think that you can judge me based on your ethnocentric and narrow-minded views, you are fooling yourself. But based on many previous posts, denial seems to be a permanent state of mind for you.


You've had quite a life. I hope the worst is behind you.

However, you are proving TP's point: you've had a harsh life and get upset when people judge you based on (in your words) ethnocentric and narrow-minded views.

That's exactly what the students did to McCain.




BTW, I am an independed because I had no preconceived notions when I moved to United States (a while back) and that enabled me to realize that having blind ties to either party is ridiculous. I vote for whoever is less incompetent to run the country and try not to be swayed by the overwhelming amount of propaganda and lies that are disseminated. Since I can only assume that someone with such poor reasoning skills and judgmental views is a rightie, I can see how you blindly accept whatever your party spoon feeds you and then you treat that as gospel. I try to be a model citizen and believe that this is the greatest country in the world, if I didn't I now have the means to move but I choose to stay. With that said, if Rice would be elected president (A hypothetical situation of course) I would move to another country because she and others like her whom I shall not name, personify all that is wrong with today’s society and politics.

Thank you that will be all until I have had my coffee and something to eat.

You're contradicting yourself.

[true progressive]

Excellent, you seem to know how to work a dictionary.


Maybe you should learn before responding.

[true progressive]

Rich Lowry is a flaming hypocrite. I really want to hire Noam Chomsky to give the commencement speech at his kid's graduation. And then when his kid protests, I hope he writes another article about how kids should pipe down and respect their elders.


How's this make him a hypocrit? I doubt he would support protesting Chomsky, and this guy deserves zero respect.

Can you name a left wing figure that's been protested like this at commencement? Well, I can actually. Hillary Clinton, but again this was by the liberals. Protests by non-liberals that is.

[bokiz333]

Maybe you should learn before responding.

What am I supposed to learn? how to work the dictionary........I'm good, already have that down, but thanks.

I will spell this out for you as a one time blue light special: You said that I am a bigot, then I asked you to point out a post of mine that supports that statement. You in turn provided a definition. briliant.

You know what, you are an marsupial.

mar·su·pi·al (mär-sū'pē-əl)
n.
Any of various nonplacental mammals of the order Marsupialia, including kangaroos, opossums, bandicoots, and wombats, found principally in Australia and the Americas

[true progressive]

What am I supposed to learn? how to work the dictionary........I'm good, already have that down, but thanks.

I will spell this out for you as a one time blue light special: You said that I am a bigot, then I asked you to point out a post of mine that supports that statement. You in turn provided a definition. briliant.

You know what, you are an marsupial.

mar·su·pi·al (mär-sū'pē-əl)
n.
Any of various nonplacental mammals of the order Marsupialia, including kangaroos, opossums, bandicoots, and wombats, found principally in Australia and the Americas


LOL

I provided the definition because you didn't know it. You want a post, I provided one. But it's irrelevant, your bigotry drips from all your posts.

You'll refuse to live in this country if someone you disagree with that is as mainstream as Condi Rice becomes president. You mindlessly insult me in an over-kill way at every chance. You insinuate my view makes me less than human.

You appear to be a very bigoted person.

P.S. Not that it matters, since I don't judge peple on ethnicity or race, but I myself am a "minority" so I certainly do not discriminate against others.


Nah, not bigoted. Because you're minority, you CERTAINLY don't discriminate against others? So only mean evil white's discriminate?

I am betting though that you, on the other hand, are probably a white male in his 40's.

What if I had said... "I bet you're an African-American"?

[Uncle Carl]

Imagine volunteering for even worse, that's what John McCain did. The students yelled over him. They raised signs over their heads, SOMETHING HE CAN'T DO BECAUSE HE WAS TORTURED SO BADLY FOR FIVE YEARS IN HELL, DEFENDING FREEDOMS OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T EVEN U.S. CITIZENS YET... I.E., YOU.Capslock = :meltdown:

[horace goldfarb]

How's this make him a hypocrit? I doubt he would support protesting Chomsky, and this guy deserves zero respect.

Can you name a left wing figure that's been protested like this at commencement? Well, I can actually. Hillary Clinton, but again this was by the liberals. Protests by non-liberals that is.
Based on the other things he's written. Every time a university has Noam Chomsky, or Cornell West, or Sista Souljah come and speak, the far right rallies the troops to protest the university's agenda to poison the minds of our youths. It goes both ways, Ricky.

[Happy Extinction]

:popcorn:

[bokiz333]

ahhhhhhhhhh I just typed this long post and hit the backspace to delete a word and the whole thing disapeared......ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Forget it, true progressive, there is no way I am retyping all of that because it's not worth my time. It appears that you have a need to be right at all times or are very competative in nature and can't stand to lose so I will just end it here. Belive what you will, it seems to be your MO anyway.

edited to say: You seem to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist because you are seeing things where there is clearly nothing to be seen. Maybe you are the ying to 2pac's yang.

[Jealousy]

I wonder if True Progressive was equally irate when Karl Rove did that "push-polling" thing in the South in the run up to the 2000 GOP nomination...

...you remember...when GOP operatives called voters up to ask them if they'd choose McCain as their candidate knowing that he had an illegitmate Black child? Remember that? And remember how these operatives failed to clarify that the dark-skinned daughter that these voters would see standing next to McCain on TV was not an illegitimate Black child but an adopted South Asian child?

That wasn't being particularly respectful of this War Hero, either. I'm sure TP was just as upset.

[true progressive]

Based on the other things he's written. Every time a university has Noam Chomsky, or Cornell West, or Sista Souljah come and speak, the far right rallies the troops to protest the university's agenda to poison the minds of our youths.


As they should (assuming that's true).

[true progressive]

I wonder if True Progressive was equally irate when Karl Rove did that "push-polling" thing in the South in the run up to the 2000 GOP nomination...


No one knows who's responsible for that disgrace. It could've been democrats. It they knew Bush was going to win, and it certainly appeared he would, they could use it against him in the general election. That's just as plausible, I mean you all were the one's that have gotten the most play out of it. Aren't you kinda suspicious? If Karl Rove did it, he certainly knew it would get out and be very damaging to them. Sounds pretty stupid for such a mastermind don't you think? I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to convict anyone without evidence.

However, we do know the very same technique was used by the democrats in the debates when both Kerry and Edwards brought up the fact Cheney's daughter was gay, in a feeble and disgraceful attempt to scare off "narrow minded" conservatives from Bush. Same tactic, suspicious at all?

That wasn't being particularly respectful of this War Hero, either. I'm sure TP was just as upset.

You bet. Whoever did it needs their nut sack nailed to a board.

But I'll say again, it's much more logical that dems did it. So I guess there isn't much to nail down...

[Jealousy]

No one knows who's responsible for that disgrace. It could've been democrats. It they knew Bush was going to win, and it certainly appeared he would, they could use it against him in the general election. That's just as plausible, I mean you all were the one's that have gotten the most play out of it. Aren't you kinda suspicious? If Karl Rove did it, he certainly knew it would get out and be very damaging to them. Sounds pretty stupid for such a mastermind don't you think? I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to convict anyone without evidence.

However, we do know the very same technique was used by the democrats in the debates when both Kerry and Edwards brought up the fact Cheney's daughter was gay, in a feeble and disgraceful attempt to scare off "narrow minded" conservatives from Bush. Same tactic, suspicious at all?



You bet. Whoever did it needs their nut sack nailed to a board.

But I'll say again, it's much more logical that dems did it. So I guess there isn't much to nail down...
You're delusional, or kidding.

It was one of Karl Rove's defining moments, and everyone knows it. Even you, if only deep down.

[horace goldfarb]

You bet. Whoever did it needs their nut sack nailed to a board.

But I'll say again, it's much more logical that dems did it. So I guess there isn't much to nail down...
That's the biggest glass of kool-aid I've ever seen consumed in one post. Breathe, TP, breathe!

[true progressive]

You're delusional, or kidding.

It was one of Karl Rove's defining moments, and everyone knows it. Even you, if only deep down.


I wonder if normal people appear delusional to the delusional?

Currently, the only people that know it are the ones that did it. Again, you're not suspicious when you know the dems used the same tactic in the debates?

I do think the dems are more likely to have done it. I believe down deep, you suspect that too.

[true progressive]

That's the biggest glass of kool-aid I've ever seen consumed in one post. Breathe, TP, breathe!

Have I wacked the hornet's nest? The libs are like angry hornets when you get too close to the real truth...

[horace goldfarb]

Have I wacked the hornet's nest? The libs are like angry hornets when you get too close to the real truth...
Playing fast and loose with the term "truth," aren't we? I can do that, too:

1) Rush Limbaugh actually killed Vince Foster.
2) Jerry Fallwell is gay.

[Jealousy]

I wonder if normal people appear delusional to the delusional?

Currently, the only people that know it are the ones that did it. Again, you're not suspicious when you know the dems used the same tactic in the debates?

I do think the dems are more likely to have done it. I believe down deep, you suspect that too.
Actually, I don't...not since I had the pleasure of listening to a Bush-supporter colleague brag about Rove's genius in this particular instance on several occasions.

I can give you a little credit, though...at least you have a straight enough moral compass to know that you should try to blame such a dispicable act on the other side.

My colleague was proud of the Bush team's devious nature.

[true progressive]

Playing fast and loose with the term "truth," aren't we? I can do that, too:


You're the one claiming to know the truth that you can't possibly know. Now, you want to say you "think" Karl Rove did it, fine. I think he didn't, not because he said he didn't, but because it would be extremely foolish for him to do it.

Do you really see Karl Rove sitting around saying... "You know Mr. Governor, we haven't done anything like this in any other state, but let's take a page out of the democrat playbook. Let's call people and ask them if they'll vote for McCain if he has an illegitimate black child. Yes, that'll appeal to the average decent American, they won't think we're trashy and creepy. Whataya say?"

Please, it's so insulting to one's intelligence.

[horace goldfarb]

You're the one claiming to know the truth that you can't possibly know. Now, you want to say you "think" Karl Rove did it, fine. I think he didn't, not because he said he didn't, but because it would be extremely foolish for him to do it.

Do you really see Karl Rove sitting around saying... "You know Mr. Governor, we haven't done anything like this in any other state, but let's take a page out of the democrat playbook. Let's call people and ask them if they'll vote for McCain if he has an illegitimate black child. Yes, that'll appeal to the average decent American, they won't think we're trashy and creepy. Whataya say?"

Please, it's so insulting to one's intelligence.
Bending and breaking the rules in order to win has been Rove's MO since the very beginning. Look it up.

They thought it would appeal to the voters in SC because the perception of voters in SC is conservative, Christian, and racist.

That makes perfect sense to me. Twisting until it doesn't make sense so you can disbelieve the obvious is your call.

[true progressive]

Actually, I don't...not since I had the pleasure of listening to a Bush-supporter colleague brag about Rove's genius in this particular instance on several occasions.


So because a colleague of your's, that has no information of fact thinks it happened, is enough for you? Don't think that would even stand up in a Kangaroo court.

News flash, my colleague's daughter thinks the Tooth Fairy is real.

Now wait! Calm down, I know this proof has you a little rattled. Take time to let it all sink in...

[Jealousy]

Bending and breaking the rules in order to win has been Rove's MO since the very beginning. Look it up.

They thought it would appeal to the voters in SC because the perception of voters in SC is conservative, Christian, and racist.

That makes perfect sense to me. Twisting until it doesn't make sense so you can disbelieve the obvious is your call.
I love how Rove and his tactics are the pride and joy of Bush supporters until such a notion conflicts with another stance, and now it's "I don't know what you're talking about."

[Jealousy]

So because a colleague of your's, that has no information of fact thinks it happened, is enough for you? No, no, no...it's all the smug Bush supporters who constantly hold up Rove's strategies as the reasons for Bush's success...and EVERYONE knows that Rove plays dirty.

This "who, me?" facade you've got on at the moment is quite cute. But quite obvious.

You're not going to be able to make 6+ years of Bush supporter Rove-worship dissappear by playing dumb now.

I found a link to the Boston Globe article that gives the most detail about the 2000 South Carolina smear campaign - a good article, I've read it a few times in the past. ...but of COURSE it's no longer available on line. How convenient.

[true progressive]

Bending and breaking the rules in order to win has been Rove's MO since the very beginning. Look it up.

Look it up? You say Rove breaks the law and you don't bother to state the laws broken or any sources?


They thought it would appeal to the voters in SC because the perception of voters in SC is conservative, Christian, and racist.

Only to liberals, Bush knows that's not the case. Regardless, it would be incredibly STUPID. That's my point. I guarantee you this, Rove or anyone else would've been fired on the spot for suggesting this dispicable nonsense.

You're trying to have it both ways. Bush only got elected because of Rove's genius, but does something this incredibly stupid. I am not like you, I don't believe stuff simply because I want it to be true.


That makes perfect sense to me. Twisting until it doesn't make sense so you can disbelieve the obvious is your call.


Not twisting anything. I only have proof that dems have used this dispicable tactic. Thus, I'm presenting a more likely scenario. It was equally dispicable what both Kerry and Edwards did. EVEN after the liberal media trashed Edwards for doing it, it didn't stop Kerry from doing it. That's how ingrained this stuff is on the left. The ends justifies the means.

I'm not saying the dems did it. I'm suggesting a more likely scenario. I'm also applying critical thinking, and when you do, it's not pretty for your side.

[horace goldfarb]

I am not like you, I don't believe stuff simply because I want it to be true.
The irony is about to tear the fabric of the universe.

[Jealousy]

However, we do know the very same technique was used by the democrats in the debates when both Kerry and Edwards brought up the fact Cheney's daughter was gay, in a feeble and disgraceful attempt to scare off "narrow minded" conservatives from Bush. Same tactic, suspicious at all? The difference, which of course you fail to consider, being that Cheney's daughter actually IS gay, whereas McCain's daughter is neither Black nor illegitimate.

Thanks for playing.

[true progressive]

No, no, no...it's all the smug Bush supporters who constantly hold up Rove's strategies as the reasons for Bush's success...and EVERYONE knows that Rove plays dirty.


We obviously run in much different circles. I've never heard anyone hold up Rove's strategies, no one I know even mentions Rove, much less his strategies and constantly.

I think you're a liar, plain and simple.

I think it's pathetic.

The ironic thing is, I'm not a Bush supporter, I DO NOT care for him. But I hate liars and b.s. I'll be the first to say that if they did do it, it's a disgrace and we got shafted that he was elected.

But I doubt it kept you all from voting for Kerry/Edwards when they did this for all to see.

Hypocrits.

[true progressive]

The difference, which of course you fail to consider, being that Cheney's daughter actually IS gay, whereas McCain's daughter is neither Black nor illegitimate.


Ok, McCain's daughter is neither black nor illegitimate, and Cheney's daughter is gay. Gee, how could I not know that, Kerry and Edwards made sure every last American was informed of it.

The point?

[Jealousy]

We obviously run in much different circles. I've never heard anyone hold up Rove's strategies, no one I know even mentions Rove, much less his strategies and constantly.

I think you're a liar, plain and simple.

I think it's pathetic.

The ironic thing is, I'm not a Bush supporter, I DO NOT care for him. But I hate liars and b.s. I'll be the first to say that if they did do it, it's a disgrace and we got shafted that he was elected.

But I doubt it kept you all from voting for Kerry/Edwards when they did this for all to see.

Hypocrits.
You claim I'm a liar, pathetic, and a hypocrite.

You accuse me of "claiming to know things that no one knows," yet you feel comfortable making such statements about me, based on a short exchange of comments on an internet board.

You should note the inherent irony.

[Jealousy]

Ok, McCain's daughter is neither black nor illegitimate, and Cheney's daughter is gay. Gee, how could I not know that, Kerry and Edwards made sure every last American was informed of it. Actually, the Bush campaign was the entity that informed America. They never hid that fact.

John Kerry brought it up ONE time during a debate, at which point everyone knew it because of weeks of press to the effect that Cheney's daughter was dedicated to her father's campaign despite a branch of his party's views on homosexuality.

The point?
The point is you've lost your grasp on the difference between a truth and a lie.

Let the record stand.

Have a good day.

[Jealousy]

I think you're a liar, plain and simple.

I think it's pathetic.

....

Hypocrits.
Oh yeah, I've been wanting to do this a while because it seems fun...

:meltdown:

[Darth Vader]

I don't know the answer, but I'm not going to convict anyone without evidence.
:lol: Funny, since that seems to be about all you do.

[Bamafan]

mispelling

A little too ironic.

[L. Mo]

haven't read the bulk of the thread, just the original post, but, I don't get it. what about the speech at your college commencement are you going to remember the next day? week? year?

Lamar Alexander spoke at mine (Sec of Ed for Bush1). I don't remember a darn thing.

The problem with McCain is he's totally caving to the religious right, after years of sanity. Sad, really.
Rice is really good at repeating all the talking points, but I really don't see any depth in her. Seriously.
I understand why anyone would protest the choice of speaker. Would I boo/protest during the speech? No, but I'm classy that way :D

[true progressive]

You claim I'm a liar, pathetic, and a hypocrite.

You accuse me of "claiming to know things that no one knows," yet you feel comfortable making such statements about me, based on a short exchange of comments on an internet board.

You should note the inherent irony.


No, to "claim" is too certain, I "think" you are, I don't know for sure so won't claim it. I'm not claiming you know things that no one knows, quite the opposite, I'm informing you that you don't.

Regardless, your points are simply irrelevant. I mean, it's strange to me that you believe something because of someone else's feelings about it.

Perhaps the irony is, this has nothing to do with the thread. The push poll against John McCain has nothing to do at all with feeling it's wrong to ruin a commencement speech.

This really isn't so much about John McCain, but rather a small percentage of immature brats that take it upon themselves to ruin everyone elses celebration. It's extremely selfish and rude, no matter who the speaker happens to be.

This stupid SC push poll was completely irrelevant, and you didn't even get the response you expected, that somehow I didn't think that was a disgrace. So you have to reach even further.

I've broken one of my most important rules, that is don't get in an argument with a fool, people may not be able to tell the difference.

I think you all have been spanked enough. I think you all learned some things today. You may not appreciate it fully yet, maybe one day. That's part of growing up.

[IAm@Work.com]

I've fixed your post to be something that is much closer to the "truth".Actually, the Bush campaign was the entity that informed America. They never hid that fact.

John Kerry brought it up ONE time during a debate, at which point everyone knew it because of weeks of research into potential voter reaction about the fact that Cheney's daughter was dedicated to her father's campaign despite a branch of his party's views on homosexuality showed that it might sway voters to the Democratic camp.

The point is you've lost your grasp on the difference between a truth and a lie and appear unaware that virtually everything about a political campaign in this country is closer to the "lie" side than the "truth" side..

Let the record stand.

Have a good day.

Oh, and bokiz333, I'd be very interested in details of why you would leave if Rice were President, but are willing to stay with Bush. I would expect that the majority of people, including many Republicans, would pick "Bush" if they had to answer the question, "If you had to leave if either Bush or Rice were President, under which administration would you leave?"

[bokiz333]

I feel that she would be a carbon copy of the current administration.

Like I said in previous posts, I did not dislike Bush from the start of his term but grew more and more discontent with every lie, mistake, blunder, etc..... So I stuck around for the re-election to see if Kerry would win, and then things only got worse when he did not. The reason that I said that I would consider moving is that in my opinion, if she was to be elected, it would be 4 more years of Bush(if not 8). And I my friend have had all that I can take.

I'm with the dixie chicks on this one, I love America and I am proud to live here but I don't necessarily have to blindly support our president if he is grossly incompetent. I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he first came in but I don't feel like I need to support him when he lets the country down. I actualy think that I am being patriotic in this way becaues what if we elected Hitler, would you follow him blindly just because he is the democraticly elected president? I would hope not.

[bokiz333]

Unfortunately I do have some work to do today so I don't think I will be able to refute any other arguments today.........so I am not ignoring anyone or running away but I do have to keep the lights on.

[Iranian Uranium]

Unfortunately I do have some work to do today so I don't think I will be able to refute any other arguments today.........I hope you're not under the impression that you refuted any arguments yesterday.

[fallout]

I feel that she would be a carbon copy of the current administration.

Like I said in previous posts, I did not dislike Bush from the start of his term but grew more and more discontent with every lie, mistake, blunder, etc..... So I stuck around for the re-election to see if Kerry would win, and then things only got worse when he did not. The reason that I said that I would consider moving is that in my opinion, if she was to be elected, it would be 4 more years of Bush(if not 8). And I my friend have had all that I can take.

I'm with the dixie chicks on this one, I love America and I am proud to live here but I don't necessarily have to blindly support our president if he is grossly incompetent. I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he first came in but I don't feel like I need to support him when he lets the country down. I actualy think that I am being patriotic in this way becaues what if we elected Hitler, would you follow him blindly just because he is the democraticly elected president? I would hope not.

What major lie did he tell that annoyed you so much?

[Banquet of Chestnuts]

... John McCain, I disagree with him politically, but he was tortured beyond all of our comprehensions while serving his country and defending our freedoms ...
You mentioned this twice already. Nice platitude, but how exactly was he defending your 'freedoms', was it worth 2+ million dead vietnamese, and, let me break the news to you: he didn't win. Since he lost, I'm assuming you are not 'free' now? Or are the two unrelated?

[Iranian Uranium]

You mentioned this twice already. Nice platitude, but how exactly was he defending your 'freedoms', was it worth 2+ million dead vietnamese, and, let me break the news to you: he didn't win. Since he lost, I'm assuming you are not 'free' now? Or are the two unrelated?After Viet Nam, how much farther did communism spread in southeast asia?

[horace goldfarb]

You mentioned this twice already. Nice platitude, but how exactly was he defending your 'freedoms', was it worth 2+ million dead vietnamese, and, let me break the news to you: he didn't win. Since he lost, I'm assuming you are not 'free' now? Or are the two unrelated?
When you're fighting for freedom, freedom doesn't necessarily have to be at stake. Fighting for it is all that matters.

[Banquet of Chestnuts]

After Viet Nam, how much farther did communism spread in southeast asia?
All of vietnam's neighbours either were communist already or turned communist shortly after. So that didn't work.
When you're fighting for freedom, freedom doesn't necessarily have to be at stake. Fighting for it is all that matters.
So you could be fighting for freedom while attacking windmills?

[horace goldfarb]

So you could be fighting for freedom while attacking windmills?
As long as it keeps Americans voting for the defense apparatus.

[true progressive]

I actualy think that I am being patriotic in this way becaues what if we elected Hitler, would you follow him blindly just because he is the democraticly elected president? I would hope not.


Patriotic?

Patriotic was throwing tea over the side of the ship, and signing your death warrant.

Moving to France with Alec Baldwin because your narcisism has squeezed out all other points of view, and you're having a little hissy fit, is hardly what I call patriotic.

But, if it'll help you move to France... I'll make an exception.

[Uncle Carl]

Patriotic?

Patriotic was throwing tea over the side of the ship, and signing your death warrant.Is there any way for a bunch of guys to be patriotic without becoming sea men?

PS - You watch too much TV.

[Harry]

This really isn't so much about John McCain, but rather a small percentage of immature brats that take it upon themselves to ruin everyone elses celebration. It's extremely selfish and rude, no matter who the speaker happens to be.



So we agree about those KY kids praying at the graduation? Cool.

[Mulan]

So we agree about those KY kids praying at the graduation? Cool.
:lolup:

[true progressive]

So we agree about those KY kids praying at the graduation? Cool.


So we agree about those KY kids praying at the graduation?

I assume you think it was ok since that's your position here.

So, I guess I disagree with you, they were wrong to do that if the organizers of the event requested they not do it.