Rocket attacks kills six on West Bank beach

[shalom]

Three children are among the dead.

"Paramedics (are) describing that there was quite a lot of blood. People are running around in confusion, children have been taken to the hospital -- it's a scene Palestinian President (Mahmoud Abbas)has described as a bloody massacre," said CTV's Janis Mackey Frayer, reporting from Jerusalem.

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060609/artillery_israeli_060609

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

Alledgedly dead.

I don't have any more proof of this than of this fictious "holocaust" thing that the Jews keep claiming happened. Let's not rush to judgement on the Palestinians until we have good, solid proof, confirmed in writing by 2pac or rense.

If the president of Iran or 2pac accept that this happened, that'll be good enough for me.

[2pac Shakur]

Alledgedly dead.

I don't have any more proof of this than of this fictious "holocaust" thing that the Jews keep claiming happened. Let's not rush to judgement on the Palestinians until we have good, solid proof, confirmed in writing by 2pac or rense.

If the president of Iran or 2pac accept that this happened, that'll be good enough for me.

Quit using my name in vein.

[shalom]

Alledgedly dead.

I don't have any more proof of this than of this fictious "holocaust" thing that the Jews keep claiming happened. Let's not rush to judgement on the Palestinians until we have good, solid proof, confirmed in writing by 2pac or rense.

If the president of Iran or 2pac accept that this happened, that'll be good enough for me.

The link is from the MSN site. The story is there in almost all the online newspapers...

[Y2Mozz]

For many months, the Israelis have been pounding away at open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their home-made missile into crudely made missiles into nearby Israeli territory. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5065008.stm

That's all I need. WTG.

[Brad Gile]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/index.html


JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells into northern Gaza on Friday, killing at least seven Palestinians on a beach, Palestinian medical sources said.

The Israel Defense Forces halted firing pending an investigation into the strike at Beit Lahya.

The IDF apologized and said it "regretted the strike on innocents," the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported.

Haaretz said the IDF's chief of staff, Gen. Dan Harel, had ordered a halt in the shelling. The Israeli paper quoted Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as condemning the killings as a "bloody massacre."

Separately, three Palestinian militants died earlier Friday in an Israeli airstrike, also in the Beit Lahya area, and two Palestinians were killed in another Israeli strike in the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza.

Video footage from the beach showed ambulance workers carrying away injured people on stretchers. A young girl was screaming for her mother in the footage.

Palestinian security sources said about 20 others were injured when Israeli shells hit the beach.

The IDF said it was shelling rocket-launching areas in Gaza from the sea. A representative said the areas were believed to be uninhabited.

Earlier Friday at Beit Lahya, the IDF said militants launched a Qassam rocket that landed in Israel but caused no damage or casualties.

Members of the group got into a car, which the Israeli air force then attacked. A large explosion followed.

The IDF said it believed the blast was due to explosives in the car.

The three dead were members of the Popular Resistance Committees, a coalition of militant groups, Palestinian security sources said. Palestinian sources said the dead included two brothers and a cousin.

Last summer, under then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel withdrew from Gaza, and Israeli forces forcibly removed about 8,000 settlers from Gaza and four small areas of the West Bank.


1. The deaths have, apparently, not yet been independently confirmed.
2. The IDF has ceased firing pending investigation and has expressed regret.
3. IF the beach strike was, indeed, unintentional this cannot be characterized as a "massacre", bloody or otherwise.


Brad

[shalom]

What a good way to handle a war?

Keep pounding on all the open places and appologize if some one is killed...

[Feif]

What a good way to handle a war?

Keep pounding on all the open places and appologize if some one is killed...
Hey, it's better than pounding the crowded palces and then proudly claiming responsibility...

[Y2Mozz]

Point Feif.

Feif, your serve.

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

The link is from the MSN site. The story is there in almost all the online newspapers...

Would those be the same newspapers that said that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon? Don't be duped. The fact that it is on MSN right away makes me suspicious.

[2pac Shakur]

Would those be the same newspapers that said that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon? Don't be duped. The fact that it is on MSN right away makes me suspicious.

And the same papers that said Saddam had WMDS?
And are reporting that Iran wants to nuke Israel?

[The Diabolical Biz Markie]

And the same papers that said Saddam had WMDS?
And are reporting that Iran wants to nuke Israel?


Same ones, yep. I told you they can't be trusted.

[shalom]

And the same papers that said Saddam had WMDS?
And are reporting that Iran wants to nuke Israel?

well done

[shalom]

Point Feif.

Feif, your serve.

What a group???

The bombings have been on villages, cars, etc....

Bombing by aeoplanes is definitely worse than by person.

[ACCtuary]

Hey, it's better than pounding the crowded palces and then proudly claiming responsibility...

There's no question that what happened was extremely regrettable. Any blood shed sets back the cause of peace.

The IDF will be investigating. When's the last time the Arabs attempted to prosecute the murder of Jewish civilians, accidental or otherwise? <crickets>

I thought so.

What happened was extremely regrettable, but I doubt the IDF fires on places just for fun. They had to have a reason. Or it was an accident.

[Brad Gile]

What a good way to handle a war?

Keep pounding on all the open places and appologize if some one is killed...

Shalom, please cite the last time that HAMAS apologized for killing anyone. Can you cite ANY time HAMAS apologized for killing anyone? Please note that gloating/taking credit <> apologizing.

Brad

[2pac Shakur]

Shalom, please cite the last time that HAMAS apologized for killing anyone. Can you cite ANY time HAMAS apologized for killing anyone? Please note that gloating/taking credit <> apologizing.

Brad

So it's ok that Israel kills more civilians year after year than Hamas kills.
All that matters is saying sorry.

[shalom]

The IDF will be investigating. When's the last time the Arabs attempted to prosecute the murder of Jewish civilians, accidental or otherwise? <crickets>

I thought so.



I have read news that Palestinian President appologizing for mishaps.

[Feif]

I have read news that Palestinian President appologizing for mishaps.
The President... the one who has to save face in front of the whole world. Thanks. How about the ones who carried out the violence? The prez says sorry, but does nothing to see it won't happen again. The IDF is carrying out an investigation into the matter because, like it or not, the Israeli army doesn't target innocents. It targets terrorists. If so-called innocents are helping hide said terrorist, and they get caught in the explosion, it's their problem for helping the terrorists. They aren't innocents once they do that.

Edit: Love the term you use, "mishaps". When did Hamas or Islamic Jihad claim a bombing was a mistake?

[2pac Shakur]

The President... the one who has to save face in front of the whole world. Thanks. How about the ones who carried out the violence? The prez says sorry, but does nothing to see it won't happen again. The IDF is carrying out an investigation into the matter because, like it or not, the Israeli army doesn't target innocents. It targets terrorists. If so-called innocents are helping hide said terrorist, and they get caught in the explosion, it's their problem for helping the terrorists. They aren't innocents once they do that.

Edit: Love the term you use, "mishaps". When did Hamas or Islamic Jihad claim a bombing was a mistake?

Yet somehow they keep killing more innocents than the Pals.
Every year.
:crazy:

[Brad Gile]

So it's ok that Israel kills more civilians year after year than Hamas kills.
All that matters is saying sorry.

That was one of your clumsier attempts at side-stepping a question. But then, I didn't ask you.

Brad

[SamTheEagle]

So what's Hamas's civilian:solider kill ratio compared to Israel's civilian:militant kill ratio?

[2pac Shakur]

That was one of your clumsier attempts at side-stepping a question. But then, I didn't ask you.

Brad

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I sidestepped the question.

:shrug:

[Y2Mozz]

Yet somehow they keep killing more innocents than the Pals.
Every year.
:crazy:Perhaps many of the Palestinians killed were helping the terrorists? Nah.

[Mulan]

So it's ok that Israel kills more civilians year after year than Hamas kills.
All that matters is saying sorry.
I have to agree with 2pac here. I teach my kids that it isn't just saying you're sorry, but trying not to do it again.

[2pac Shakur]

Perhaps many of the Palestinians killed were helping the terrorists? Nah.

Maybe the civilians killed by the Pals were helping the Israeli military? Nah.

[Y2Mozz]

By walking in the mall? Sure.

[shalom]

Of course, spies are looking for enemies in the malls and buses and they are the basic targets...

[Brad Gile]

Of course, spies are looking for enemies in the malls and buses and they are the basic targets...

Does Mad Magazine still do "Spy vs Spy"? Your post conjures up images that I bet Mad would have a field day with. :rofl:

brad

[Eimon Gnome]

Investigating and sorry. Lame

Picture this. A gang shooting in LA. Bullets fly, and a family of 4 is accidentally wiped out. The gangs say they are sorry. The police investigate.

Now, are you telling me that makes the whole thing less disgusting? That's sick.

[fallout]

Investigating and sorry. Lame

Picture this. A gang shooting in LA. Bullets fly, and a family of 4 is accidentally wiped out. The gangs say they are sorry. The police investigate.

Now, are you telling me that makes the whole thing less disgusting? That's sick.


A country's army is not a gang. The analogies you guys draw are stunning.

From Bush = Saddam, to the US soldiers are terrorists to the Israeli army = a gang doing drive by shootings. :rolleyes:

Let me give you a hint. The gang would still be wrong even if they only hit their intended targets. The army would be right if they hit thiers.

[E. Blackadder]

picture this: a group of inept gang members starts shooting while surrounded by their distant relatives. A cop returns fire and unfortunately kills a nearby kid.

[Eimon Gnome]

A country's army is not a gang. The analogies you guys draw are stunning.

From Bush = Saddam, to the US soldiers are terrorists to the Israeli army = a gang doing drive by shootings. :rolleyes:

Let me give you a hint. The gang would still be wrong even if they only hit their intended targets. The army would be right if they hit thiers.
Ok, fine. So the investigation and sorry mean nothing to you. It did to others in the thread.

Your part where the army is never wrong if they hit their target.......sick again. I suppose you are a big fan of Stalin and Mao. Heck, the army is never wrong.

Oh wait, you probably meant "good armies". Like the ones who kill "bad guys". Oh, thats different. That's sick in yet a third way. Keep your hints to yourself.

[shalom]

Ok, fine. So the investigation and sorry mean nothing to you. It did to others in the thread.

Your part where the army is never wrong if they hit their target.......sick again. I suppose you are a big fan of Stalin and Mao. Heck, the army is never wrong.

Oh wait, you probably meant "good armies". Like the ones who kill "bad guys". Oh, thats different. That's sick in yet a third way. Keep your hints to yourself.

I thank you for supporting the opperessed nations....

Oppressed nations usually don't have their armies....

Tibet, Kashmir, Sinkiang (Chinese Turkistan), .........

[Feif]

I thank you for supporting the opperessed nations....

Oppressed nations usually don't have their armies....

Tibet, Kashmir, Sinkiang (Chinese Turkistan), .........
You know Shalom, you always talk about how you are against any violence, and you always bring up Tibet, Kashmir, etc. But the only one you really ever have anything to say about is the Palestinian situation. Why is that? I think you really just love the Palestinians, hate the Israelis, and use the other countries just to be able to say how you hate all violence.

[shalom]

You know Shalom, you always talk about how you are against any violence, and you always bring up Tibet, Kashmir, etc. But the only one you really ever have anything to say about is the Palestinian situation. Why is that? I think you really just love the Palestinians, hate the Israelis, and use the other countries just to be able to say how you hate all violence.

interesting...feif ....interesting....

As sson as a news about those issues will come in front of me, I will bring that up, too. Another interesting fact is that media portrays Palestine in a wrong way....specially,....as it is in the hands of a power group I don't know who.....

A powerful group is painting lots of worng picture of Palestine. But, thanks for reminding, I will write for others, too. I guess I have written couple of posts about kashmir already.

[Feif]

First of all, Shalom, there is no Palestine any more. The term Palestinian was invented by Arafat to try and give his terrorist organization some legitimacy. Unfortunately, it worked. But Palestine as a country hasn't existed for a very long time. But the only time Palestinians are represented wrongly is when people like you write about them, and on college campuses around the US, who, if it would come up again, would probably protest the US entering WW2 after Pearl Harbor also.
Face it: as much as you try to justify their actions, blowing up a bus in a crowded marketplace is a terrorist attack. It doesn't matter why they did it, how oppressed they were, etc. The women and children on that bus didn't do it to them. They do it because they are religious fanatics who place no value on human life. They are told that if they blow themselves up they will go to heaven and have 70 virgins waiting there for them. That is why they do it. Because in Palestinian schools they teach hatred of Israel and of all Jews. Once again, I know you'll say that they have no choice, because they were opressed for so long that they don't know any better. But just like sometimes you have to shoot a rabid dog that goes around biting people, you have to put down people like that. Is it the dog's fault it has rabies and bites people? No. But fot the good of the people around it, you have to pupt it down. The terrorists are the same way, except they created their circumstances themselves by starting a war against Israel. Which, by the way, I have yet to hear from you about. Why did they start a war against Israel? Why did they start 4 wars against Israel? I've asked you that before, and you still never answered me.

[ACCtuary]

Yet somehow they keep killing more innocents than the Pals.
Every year.
:crazy:

Every year, the Pals fire from dense urban areas. Blame their strategy, not the Israelis. Perhaps they should warn their civilians when Israeli airstrikes are coming or perhaps they just don't care about their own people because Israel's killing them makes for much better propaganda. Palestinians can't choose much, but they can choose how to P/R spin their own deaths.

[ACCtuary]

First of all, Shalom, there is no Palestine any more. The term Palestinian was invented by Arafat to try and give his terrorist organization some legitimacy. Unfortunately, it worked. But Palestine as a country hasn't existed for a very long time. But the only time Palestinians are represented wrongly is when people like you write about them, and on college campuses around the US, who, if it would come up again, would probably protest the US entering WW2 after Pearl Harbor also.
Face it: as much as you try to justify their actions, blowing up a bus in a crowded marketplace is a terrorist attack. It doesn't matter why they did it, how oppressed they were, etc. The women and children on that bus didn't do it to them. They do it because they are religious fanatics who place no value on human life. They are told that if they blow themselves up they will go to heaven and have 70 virgins waiting there for them. That is why they do it. Because in Palestinian schools they teach hatred of Israel and of all Jews. Once again, I know you'll say that they have no choice, because they were opressed for so long that they don't know any better. But just like sometimes you have to shoot a rabid dog that goes around biting people, you have to put down people like that. Is it the dog's fault it has rabies and bites people? No. But fot the good of the people around it, you have to pupt it down. The terrorists are the same way, except they created their circumstances themselves by starting a war against Israel. Which, by the way, I have yet to hear from you about. Why did they start a war against Israel? Why did they start 4 wars against Israel? I've asked you that before, and you still never answered me.

48,52,67,73 and if you count siding with the Nazis in WWII, that makes 5.

[ACCtuary]

that media portrays Palestine in a wrong way....specially,....as it is in the hands of a power group I don't know who.....


While I think opinions on a wide range of topics are welcome, this repetition of a leitmotif you don't even have the guts to come out and say is offensive and slanderous. Such blood accusations go beyond freedom of speech and they border on incitement.

I hope the Mods will consider banning you.

[shalom]

48,52,67,73 and if you count siding with the Nazis in WWII, that makes 5.

and if you count a 5 year old arab child who beat another 5 year old jew child 500 years ago, that makes it 6.....

and if you count the number of times Ismael beat Isac in Abraham's time, it will make it even more......

keep counting....

[ACCtuary]

I am only counting times since 1900 they have acted as an organized political body, but thanks for the history lesson. Oh, OK. Let's add the 1938 riots.

May I assume your point is that counting past wrongs is not the best way to determine the future of Palestine? How about missed opportunities for peace - let's count those instead? How about the number of times the Arabs have refused to come to the table when peace was offered? How about electing Hamas to power?

[The African Queen]

I have to agree with 2pac here. I teach my kids that it isn't just saying you're sorry, but trying not to do it again.

Do you feel that shooting rockets from Gaza beaches into Israel warrants reprisal? What would you do?

Do you consider those that are firing these rockets to be military people or civilians?

Israel apologized. Offered medical assistance for this. Find me one time that the Pals have sincerely apologized. Every time Arafat apologized for a suicide bomber, he was also rewarding the family of the bomber with fat checks over the bomber's martydom.

[Feif]

Thank you, African Queen. Yes, the attack was a terrible thing. But the Israelis admitted it was a mistake, offered some reparations for it, and made an official apology. When was the last the time the Palestinian gov't offered some reparations to Israeli victims of suicide bombing or missle attacks? Did they ever claim it was a mistake?

Now, Hamas says its military wing will begin strikes again. I think this constitutes an act of war by an official gov't against Israel, and Israel will have the right to strike back.

[2pac Shakur]

Do you feel that shooting rockets from Gaza beaches into Israel warrants reprisal? What would you do?

Do you consider those that are firing these rockets to be military people or civilians?

Israel apologized. Offered medical assistance for this. Find me one time that the Pals have sincerely apologized. Every time Arafat apologized for a suicide bomber, he was also rewarding the family of the bomber with fat checks over the bomber's martydom.

Do you feel the Pals should respond to the Israelis attacking the Pals?
What should they do?

[doubter]

It will be interesting to see if anyone changes their positions if this turns out to be true: israelnewsagency (http://www.israelnewsagency.com/hamasterrorgazaisrael48770611.html)

Jerusalem-----June 11.......An Israel Defense Forces intelligence officer has confirmed that the explosion that killed eight Palestinians on Friday, was caused by a stockpile of Hamas explosives.

"Shortly after we stopped defensive firing at Hamas rocket launch pads which were deployed behind Palestinian human shields, members of Hamas scrambled to fire more rockets at our positions," said Col. M. "We have eyes on every meter of Gaza, from the sky, from the ground and from the sea. One of their rocket tripods collapsed inadvertently setting off an explosion of a stockpile of Qassam rockets. The Palestinians killed their own children. And this was not the first time."

Hamas terrorists fired rockets and mortar bombs from a crowded Gaza beach at southern Israel. Some of the rockets fell near the Israel city of Ashkelon. Some 17 rockets were fired between Saturday and Sunday morning. A man at a school in the Israel town of Sderot was wounded, Israel officials said

[2pac Shakur]

It will be interesting to see if anyone changes their positions if this turns out to be true: israelnewsagency (http://www.israelnewsagency.com/hamasterrorgazaisrael48770611.html)

Blaming the nation that was attacked? Now there's a new one.

[Feif]

Blaming the nation that was attacked? Now there's a new one.
And if they prove it to be true? Will you still deny it?

[The African Queen]

Do you feel the Pals should respond to the Israelis attacking the Pals?
What should they do?

How about recongnize the existence of the State of Israel? Stop shooting rockets from Gaza. Catch and prosecute militants.

[2pac Shakur]

How about recongnize the existence of the State of Israel? Stop shooting rockets from Gaza. Catch and prosecute militants.


Maybe the Pals would be more willing to do that if Israel would quit killing Pal citizens.

[2pac Shakur]

And if they prove it to be true? Will you still deny it?

If they don't, will you still blame the Pals?

[Feif]

If they don't, will you still blame the Pals?
I never did blame the Pals for this attack.:tup:

[ACCtuary]

Tupe! Blaming the Pals for everything is my job.
Get it straight, man!

[fallout]

Do you feel the Pals should respond to the Israelis attacking the Pals?
What should they do?


I think blowing up a school bus is a good start. :rolleyes: Maybe an arcade or a wedding.

[The African Queen]

Maybe the Pals would be more willing to do that if Israel would quit killing Pal citizens.

The Pals need Israel a whole lot mote than Israel needs the Pals. Without negotiating with israel, the Pals will never move ahead.

[Feif]

2pac, the arab extremists were killing Jews long before the state of Israel existed. What makes you think they'd stop? I don't think they'd stop until they killed every Jew in the area, possibly the world.

[2pac Shakur]

2pac, the arab extremists were killing Jews long before the state of Israel existed. What makes you think they'd stop? I don't think they'd stop until they killed every Jew in the area, possibly the world.

I think they'd stop if they weren't being brutally occupied.

[2pac Shakur]

I think blowing up a school bus is a good start. :rolleyes: Maybe an arcade or a wedding.

Or bombing a family picnic at the beach.
:shrug:

[fallout]

Or bombing a family picnic at the beach.
:shrug:


You said it. Pal terrorists would not hesitate to do this either.

[Feif]

I think they'd stop if they weren't being brutally occupied.
First of all, they're not being "brutally occupied". Israel conquered land, and they just can't accept it.
Second, did you miss my other post? They were killing Jews before Israel was formed. It has nothing to do with ocupation, and everything to do with unfounded hatred

[fallout]

Or bombing a family picnic at the beach.
:shrug:


Do you believe that the Israeli army targets innocent families on a beach having picnics?

[2pac Shakur]

Do you believe that the Israeli army targets innocent families on a beach having picnics?


That's what they hit, didn't they?

[Feif]

That's what they hit, didn't they?
Doesn't mean they purposely targeted them. Do you believe the Israelis meant to hit the family on the beach, knowing they were an innocent family?

[2pac Shakur]

Doesn't mean they purposely targeted them. Do you believe the Israelis meant to hit the family on the beach, knowing they were an innocent family?

I think they are equally willing to kill civilians as the Palestinians are.

[Feif]

I think they are equally willing to kill civilians as the Palestinians are.
You still haven't answered the question. DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELIS PURPOSELY TARGETED AN INNOCENT FAMILY ON THE BEACH?

[Harry]

I think blowing up a school bus is a good start. :rolleyes: Maybe an arcade or a wedding.

Nah, bombing kids at a beach is probably better. :rolleyes:

[Harry]

You still haven't answered the question. DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELIS PURPOSELY TARGETED AN INNOCENT FAMILY ON THE BEACH?

No, but using a standard of reasonable expectations, they are just as guilty as if they had.

[Feif]

No, but using a standard of reasonable expectations, they are just as guilty as if they had.
Why is that? Why is accidentally killing a family just as bad as purposely blowing up a bus in middle of a busy street, or bombing a pizza shop?

[SamTheEagle]

No, but using a standard of reasonable expectations, they are just as guilty as if they had.

How about when a cop is shooting at a suspect and accidently hits an innocent bystander?

[shalom]

First of all, they're not being "brutally occupied". Israel conquered land, and they just can't accept it.
Second, did you miss my other post? They were killing Jews before Israel was formed. It has nothing to do with ocupation, and everything to do with unfounded hatred

You are wrong

Jews were a fraction of Palestinian Population and were not under persecution in Palestine before Jews started to occupy the land.

[Feif]

You are wrong

Jews were a fraction of Palestinian Population and were not under persecution in Palestine before Jews started to occupy the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel
...after the establishment of the British Mandate of Palestine, the influx of Jews increased dramatically, a result of persecution of Jews in Europe, as well as the success of Zionist ideas. There had been a steady influx of Jews to Palestine since the 1880s. It was not until the Arab Palestinians began to feel in earnest that they could become a minority, that their leadership turned to violence hoping to compel the British administration to limit further Jewish immigration.

This tactic was proven successful after the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920, an attack on old Yishuv incited by Haj Amin Al-Husseini (subsequently the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem), when the British blamed the Zionists, arrested their leadership and halted Jewish immigration. In the aftermath of the riots in Palestine of May, 1921 and a change in administrators of the British Mandate, the administration, headed by high commissioner Herbert Samuel changed its policy regarding a promise to establish the Jewish National Homeland in Palestine (the reason behind the Mandate given to them by the League of Nations) by "fixing by the numbers and interests of the present population" the future Jewish immigration.

Syrian-born Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, after whom the "military wing" of Hamas is named, created the first ever terrorist network in the history of the British Mandate of Palestine. The network, called the Black Hand, was responsible for the deaths of at least 10 Jews. After it killed a Jewish police officer, El-Kassam was hunted down and killed by British police.

In 1929 Arab mobs massacred over 100 Jews, 67 of them in Hebron Massacre alone, an ancient community where Jews lived among Arabs peacefully for centuries. Many of the Jews corpses were mutilated by Arabs.
Jews moved there legally back then. Unless the arabs have something against Jews, what was wrong with them moving there? Also, Jews did not "occupy" the land. They conquered it in a war they didn't even start.

[Harry]

How about when a cop is shooting at a suspect and accidently hits an innocent bystander?

If there is a reasonable expectation that his shooting will result in a dead bystander? Pretty damn guilty. They are trained not to shoot in such a situation.

[Harry]

Why is that? Why is accidentally killing a family just as bad as purposely blowing up a bus in middle of a busy street, or bombing a pizza shop?
If there was a reasonable expectation that there would be innocent families on that beach, then they knew innocents would be killed. Guilty.

If there was a soldier on the bus that gets blown up, and he was the target, is that still terrorism? And how does it differ than bombing a beach with innocents?

[2pac Shakur]

You still haven't answered the question. DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELIS PURPOSELY TARGETED AN INNOCENT FAMILY ON THE BEACH?

Yup.
It happens so frequently, I think it is intentional.
The Israeli military knows there are civilians in the area they are gonna bomb, but they know if they just say they are sorry, all will be forgiven.

[Feif]

Yup.
It happens so frequently, I think it is intentional.
The Israeli military knows there are civilians in the area they are gonna bomb, but they know if they just say they are sorry, all will be forgiven.
Frequently? How many times have the Israelis targeted a family playing on the beach? They target terrorists and those who help them. That's it. If a family hides a terrorist, then yes, they will be targeted. But those people are not innocent. They support terror.

[2pac Shakur]

Frequently? How many times have the Israelis targeted a family playing on the beach? They target terrorists and those who help them. That's it. If a family hides a terrorist, then yes, they will be targeted. But those people are not innocent. They support terror.

Again:

Israelis kill more civilians EVERY YEAR than Pals do.

So yea, frequently.

[Feif]

Again:

Israelis kill more civilians EVERY YEAR than Pals do.

So yea, frequently.
No, I don't define most of them as civilians. Most of them help the terrorists, which puts them in the terrorist category.

[Harry]

No, I don't define most of them as civilians. Most of them help the terrorists, which puts them in the terrorist category.

Rationalization really helps you sleep at night. Just consider all the dead children to be helping the terrorists and there is no moral problem.

[2pac Shakur]

No, I don't define most of them as civilians. Most of them help the terrorists, which puts them in the terrorist category.

The Pals do the same thing when bombing Israeli buses.
So, you can understand their mentality.

[2pac Shakur]

No, I don't define most of them as civilians. Most of them help the terrorists, which puts them in the terrorist category.

I bet the 9/11 hijackers felt the same way.
Your in good company.

:tup:

[Feif]

Rationalization really helps you sleep at night. Just consider all the dead children to be helping the terrorists and there is no moral problem.
Children like these?

http://www.terrorists-suck.org/fight/images/kid_bomber.jpg


Or maybe like these:

http://www.matckh.org/images/hamaskid.jpg


They start training them really youg these days:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/baby.jpg

[SamTheEagle]

I bet the 9/11 hijackers felt the same way.
Your in good company.

:tup:

I thought the US was controlling those planes on 9/11.

[Feif]

The Pals do the same thing when bombing Israeli buses.
So, you can understand their mentality.
The difference is that Israel fights following the international rules of war. They target only military targets. The woman or child on a bus in Israel never did anything to the Palestinians, and never helped terrorists.

[SamTheEagle]

Children like these?

http://www.terrorists-suck.org/fight/images/kid_bomber.jpg


Or maybe like these:

http://www.matckh.org/images/hamaskid.jpg


They start training them really youg these days:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/baby.jpg

That last one looks like a babydoll.

And do you really think that children should be held accountable for the things their parents force them to do?

[Harry]

The difference is that Israel fights following the international rules of war. They target only military targets. The woman or child on a bus in Israel never did anything to the Palestinians, and never helped terrorists.
You didn't answer my question about a soldier on the bus. Those kids on the beach never hurt anyone either. And seriously, don't make me post pictures of Israeli settlers with uzis again.

[Feif]

That last one looks like a babydoll.

And do you really think that children should be held accountable for the things their parents force them to do?
Forced? Brainwashed is more like it. The kids are taught hatred, and they go and do it willingly. Fact of the matter is, it's better to kill a brainwashed kid to save lives than let the kid live and have innocents killed.

[2pac Shakur]

The difference is that Israel fights following the international rules of war. They target only military targets. The woman or child on a bus in Israel never did anything to the Palestinians, and never helped terrorists.

So those people having a picninc were a military target? They never helped a terrorist. An Israeli pays taxes, don't they? Or does America cover that, too?

[Harry]

Forced? Brainwashed is more like it. The kids are taught hatred, and they go and do it willingly. Fact of the matter is, it's better to kill a brainwashed kid to save lives than let the kid live and have innocents killed.

A new sig line!

[2pac Shakur]

Forced? Brainwashed is more like it. The kids are taught hatred, and they go and do it willingly. Fact of the matter is, it's better to kill a brainwashed kid to save lives than let the kid live and have innocents killed.

They should be more openminded.
Like you.
:shake:

[Feif]

You didn't answer my question about a soldier on the bus. Those kids on the beach never hurt anyone either. And seriously, don't make me post pictures of Israeli settlers with uzis again.
You can post all the pictures of Uzis you want. An Uzi is a weapon used by soldiers, and in Israel military training, especially on the settlements starts young. Show me children with Uzis shooting Palestinians and you have a case. A suicide belt is only used for one purpose, and it isn't legitimate.
If an Israeli soldier was being chased by militants, he wouldn't run onto a crowded bus. Believe me.

[Feif]

They should be more openminded.
Like you.
:shake:
So you think the kids aren't being taught hatred at all?

[2pac Shakur]

So you think the kids aren't being taught hatred at all?

I think you have been taugh hatred.

[Harry]

You can post all the pictures of Uzis you want. An Uzi is a weapon used by soldiers, and in Israel military training, especially on the settlements starts young. Show me children with Uzis shooting Palestinians and you have a case. A suicide belt is only used for one purpose, and it isn't legitimate.
If an Israeli soldier was being chased by militants, he wouldn't run onto a crowded bus. Believe me.
More rationalization. You're amazing. Show me children blowing up Israelis and you have a case. Otherwise, leave the pictures out of it.

But I don't see why you make such a distinction in the way that someone is killed. A bomb or a gun. So? They're still dead. Dropping a 500 lb bomb on a crowded beach to kill someone is better than blowing up a crowded bus to kill someone? In both cases, the target might get killed along with innocents.

[Feif]

I think you have been taugh hatred.
No, I have learned reality. Many Palestinians hate me just because I am a Jew.

[2pac Shakur]

No, I have learned reality. Many Palestinians hate me just because I am a Jew.

You hate many Palestinians because they are Palestinian.

[Feif]

You hate many Palestinians because they are Palestinian.
No, I hate many Palestinians because they wish all Jews were dead.

[fallout]

How about when a cop is shooting at a suspect and accidently hits an innocent bystander?


harry needs more information. Like is the cop american? How can he blame W for the shooting? Of course at the end of the day, you will still not have an answer so it's probably not worth pursuing.

[fallout]

More rationalization. You're amazing. Show me children blowing up Israelis and you have a case. Otherwise, leave the pictures out of it.

But I don't see why you make such a distinction in the way that someone is killed. A bomb or a gun. So? They're still dead. Dropping a 500 lb bomb on a crowded beach to kill someone is better than blowing up a crowded bus to kill someone? In both cases, the target might get killed along with innocents.


There is a difference of course, and you know it. But I'll help you out anyways.

The difference occurs when the target IS the innocents.

[Harry]

There is a difference of course, and you know it. But I'll help you out anyways.

The difference occurs when the target IS the innocents.

But if the target is a soldier sitting on the bus, there is no difference?

[Harry]

harry needs more information. Like is the cop american? How can he blame W for the shooting? Of course at the end of the day, you will still not have an answer so it's probably not worth pursuing.

Why do you always feel the need to speak for me? You're very amusing today.

[Feif]

But if the target is a soldier sitting on the bus, there is no difference?
Are they following international laws of war? Are they wearing uniforms? Forget about the bus for a second. The entire method of fighting they use is illegal by international law.
Besides for that, the Palestinian terrorists purposely hide among civilians. Israeli soldiers use buses to get places, not to hide.
Besides, when has Hamas or Islamic Jihad claimed it blew up a bus in order to kill only the soldier? Never. They blow up the bus to kill everybody on it.

[Feif]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=105257

Writing for the NFC Hebrew news site, HaLevy adds, "The IDF fires 155mm artillery shells towards open areas in order to thwart the Kassam launchers, and often warns the locals not to be there. In the present case, it is very doubtful as to whether the family was hit by a 155mm shell. I carefully reviewed the video clips disseminated by the PA television, and the documentation of [Channel Two], and I did not find the large hole that a 155mm shell [would have made]."

HaLevy said that for their part, the Arabs of the PA "made sure to exhibit the bodies of the dead, but refrained from showing the crater and the shrapnel as proof of their claims."

Wow 2pac, you'd think it was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon with the lack of evidence the Palestinians have shown...

[Harry]

Are they following international laws of war? Are they wearing uniforms? Forget about the bus for a second. The entire method of fighting they use is illegal by international law.
Besides for that, the Palestinian terrorists purposely hide among civilians. Israeli soldiers use buses to get places, not to hide.
Besides, when has Hamas or Islamic Jihad claimed it blew up a bus in order to kill only the soldier? Never. They blow up the bus to kill everybody on it.

Bombing civilian targets is illegal by international law too. Haven't there been many UN resolutions against Israel regarding the occupation - are they all being followed? Those Palestinian kids were probably just on the beach planning their next terrorist attack, right? Whatever gets you through the night.

[ACCtuary]

Bombing civilian targets is illegal by international law too. Haven't there been many UN resolutions against Israel regarding the occupation - are they all being followed? Those Palestinian kids were probably just on the beach planning their next terrorist attack, right? Whatever gets you through the night.

My understanding was that the target was 400 yards away. They were not aiming at civilians.

[Eimon Gnome]

My understanding was that the target was 400 yards away. They were not aiming at civilians.
Collateral Damage

[The African Queen]

More rationalization. You're amazing. Show me children blowing up Israelis and you have a case. Otherwise, leave the pictures out of it.

But I don't see why you make such a distinction in the way that someone is killed. A bomb or a gun. So? They're still dead. Dropping a 500 lb bomb on a crowded beach to kill someone is better than blowing up a crowded bus to kill someone? In both cases, the target might get killed along with innocents.

So Harry, are you saying that Israel purposely blew up that beach to kill as many innocents as possible? That is, do you think Israel purposely planned, in advance, on killing those people?

Do you think that Pals use humans (innocents) as shields?

Are you saying that a suicide bomber will only blow himself up if he/she has information that there are soldiers at that location?

Do you think the Pal leaders do everything possible to improve the quality of life of their citizens?

Do Palestinian children (below the age of 15) attack Israeli soldiers with rocks and Molotov Cocktails?

Please give answers. I'll give you my opinions on your questions also.

[E. Blackadder]

The paleos nailed seven of their own. That's how it is.

Pre-planned street theatre will always look good for a few hours. That's how it is. It's lasts until someone finds the hole in the story. That's also how it is.

[Harry]

So Harry, are you saying that Israel purposely blew up that beach to kill as many innocents as possible? That is, do you think Israel purposely planned, in advance, on killing those people? No, I think they are careless sometimes, but dead is dead. And it makes no difference to the families of the dead that it was an "accident". Dropping bombs is not an accident - it's more like drunk driving.

Do you think that Pals use humans (innocents) as shields? I don't know. I don't think they are looking for innocent Palestinians to die. I think they are human and would prefer no death, just freedom.

Are you saying that a suicide bomber will only blow himself up if he/she has information that there are soldiers at that location? No, not only then.

Do you think the Pal leaders do everything possible to improve the quality of life of their citizens? No leaders do that, but I think they think they're doing the right thing by fighting for their independence (note that I'm not saying they are doing the right thing, just that they think they are).

Do Palestinian children (below the age of 15) attack Israeli soldiers with rocks and Molotov Cocktails? Maybe - do you think Palestinian children know better? Do you think they have seen their friends, siblings and parents killed by Israeli soldiers and bombs?

Please give answers. I'll give you my opinions on your questions also.
.

[Eimon Gnome]

So Harry, are you saying that Israel purposely blew up that beach to kill as many innocents as possible? That is, do you think Israel purposely planned, in advance, on killing those people?
No. Do you think the Israeli's purposely fired the mortar, or do their weapons spontaeously fire? Do the Israeli's know what the mortar does when it lands?
Do you think that Pals use humans (innocents) as shields? Yes.

Are you saying that a suicide bomber will only blow himself up if he/she has information that there are soldiers at that location? No.

Do you think the Pal leaders do everything possible to improve the quality of life of their citizens? No. Same as any political leaders. Do you think bombing civilians improves the quality of life of Israeli citizens?

Do Palestinian children (below the age of 15) attack Israeli soldiers with rocks and Molotov Cocktails? Yes. Do you think bombing them will increase their compassion?

Please give answers. I'll give you my opinions on your questions also.[/QUOTE]

Two wrongs do not make a right. Using terrorists as a yardstick for behavior will have predictable results. You become a terrorist.

[Feif]

Bombing civilian targets is illegal by international law too. Haven't there been many UN resolutions against Israel regarding the occupation - are they all being followed? Those Palestinian kids were probably just on the beach planning their next terrorist attack, right? Whatever gets you through the night.
You're right, targeting civilian targets is illegal. Good thing Israel doesn't target civilians. As for UN resolutions, Israel wanted to turn the territories over long ago, but had nobody to negotiate with. To turn them over to someone who is sworn to kill you is just plain stupid.
As for the family on the beach, yes, it was a regrettable incident. I won't try to justify it. i will just say that israel has apologized, and is conducting an investigation into the matter, in which the Palestinians refuse to cooperate. There is now evidence being found which suggests it wasn't an Israeli strike after all, which would explain why the Palestinians aren't being very helpful.
But even if it was the israelis fault, as I said, they said it was a mistake and apologized. When was the last time Hamas apologized for a bombing?

[The African Queen]

No. Do you think the Israeli's purposely fired the mortar, or do their weapons spontaeously fire? Do the Israeli's know what the mortar does when it lands?
Yes.

No.

No. Same as any political leaders. Do you think bombing civilians improves the quality of life of Israeli citizens?

Yes. Do you think bombing them will increase their compassion?

Please give answers. I'll give you my opinions on your questions also.


Yes, I think Israel purposely fired their mortar and they had specific militants targetted. If the original story is true, then the killing of the inncoents was an accident that they admitted to, but the latest story may indicate that it was not their fault at all.

Bombing civilians doesn't help anybody. Keep in mind that using human shields to place blame on the attacker doesn't help anybody either.

Of course it won't increase their compassion. But what it will do, is embolden them to continue their own attacks. If Israel doesn't retailiate, then do you think the rockets from Gaza would stop? The attacks would contniue 10-fold.

If this was the work of a fringe group of radical people then you may be right. But what the Pals do is state sanctioned terror and that gives Israel the right to defend itelf and retaliate.

[Eimon Gnome]

Of course it won't increase their compassion. But what it will do, is embolden them to continue their own attacks. If Israel doesn't retailiate, then do you think the rockets from Gaza would stop? The attacks would contniue 10-fold.

And this is where we disagree. We've tried 40 years of your way. Results are less than optiimal.

Perhaps a new approach is worth considering.

[Feif]

And this is where we disagree. We've tried 40 years of your way. Results are less than optiimal.

Perhaps a new approach is worth considering.
They have tried giving peace a chance:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/mideast/index.html

"We have agreed with Prime Minister Sharon to cease all violence against the Israelis and against the Palestinians, wherever they are," Abbas said after talks at their summit in Egypt.

Shortly after the announcement, the Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas issued a statement saying it is not a party to the agreement. The cease-fire is the position of the Palestinian Authority only, the statement said.

[Feif]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003868118

Hamas has retaliated for the mistake, and said they will continue to strike at Israel. This is a declaration of war. Now Israel has every right to go in and attack them, and occupy their land.

[Harry]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003868118

Hamas has retaliated for the mistake, and said they will continue to strike at Israel. This is a declaration of war. Now Israel has every right to go in and attack them, and occupy their land.

Woohoo!! Party at Feif's house tonight!!!

[Feif]

Woohoo!! Party at Feif's house tonight!!!
No, no party. War is a terrible thing. I don't wish for a war to happen. I wish they would have peace. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't. Sometimes, you have to go to war because as bad as it is, the alternative is worse.

[Banquet of Chestnuts]

First of all, they're not being "brutally occupied". Israel conquered land, and they just can't accept it.
:rimshot:

[fallout]

And this is where we disagree. We've tried 40 years of your way. Results are less than optiimal.

Perhaps a new approach is worth considering.


I agree. I think it's time Israel took the gloves off. I believe the US has asked them not to, and this is what keeps the problem alive.

How many Mexicans blowing themselves up at US basebnall games or malls do you think it would take befoire the US took the gloves off with Mexico? Remember WW2 and those internment camps for Japanese? (well maybe Brad can). The amount of restraint shown by Israel for this long is actually very good.

[Y2Mozz]

No, no party. War is a terrible thing. I don't wish for a war to happen. I disagree.

[E. Blackadder]

How many Mexicans blowing themselves up at US basebnall games or malls do you think it would take befoire the US took the gloves off with Mexico?
January 20, 2009. After noon.

"I can't take responsibility for every under-armored spectator in America."

[Mulan]

state sanctioned terror and that gives Israel the right to defend itelf and retaliate.But do they wear UNIFORMS? Well do they?

[shalom]

No, I have learned reality. Many Palestinians hate me just because I am a Jew.

No they hate you because you are supporter of the aggressor....

[shalom]

I disagree.

You will agree if you were part of the oppressed nation....

[shalom]

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003868118

Hamas has retaliated for the mistake, and said they will continue to strike at Israel. This is a declaration of war. Now Israel has every right to go in and attack them, and occupy their land.

Tomorrow buy a stupid person in Jordon and pay him to fire a bullet and then you will have all the right to attack Jordon and occupy and conquer Jordon......

Iraq might be an easier target now-a-days, let's attack....

[fallout]

Tomorrow buy a stupid person in Jordon and pay him to fire a bullet and then you will have all the right to attack Jordon and occupy and conquer Jordon......

Iraq might be an easier target now-a-days, let's attack....


But in "Palestine", they just voted for Hamas, right?
And Hamas likes to attack Israel right?
Is this really the same thing as one "stupid" guy in Jordan in your eyes?

[shalom]

So Harry, are you saying that Israel purposely blew up that beach to kill as many innocents as possible? That is, do you think Israel purposely planned, in advance, on killing those people?

Do you think that Pals use humans (innocents) as shields?

Read the history of the world, freedom fighters are weak and they have to use human shields, jews use that too. PAL freedom fighters have to hide some where...
Are you saying that a suicide bomber will only blow himself up if he/she has information that there are soldiers at that location?

There could be sioldiers, spies, inteligence agency people, people posing threat to the PALs cause...
Do you think the Pal leaders do everything possible to improve the quality of life of their citizens?

They have even punished and tried people who attacked Israel....

Do Palestinian children (below the age of 15) attack Israeli soldiers with rocks and Molotov Cocktails?

Becasue they don't have weapons and they have been put in ghetoos and deprived of all rights....
Do you bomb and directly fire at the stone throwers kids here....
Please give answers. I'll give you my opinions on your questions also.

stand for justice...

[E. Blackadder]

could it have been a mine? interesting. With the palis, the the strangest explanation becomes the most probable.

[Feif]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

The investigation concluded that it was not an artillary shell that caused the explosion, but a planted explosive. Just another example of the Palestinians blowing themselves up and trying to blame Israel...

[The African Queen]

But do they wear UNIFORMS? Well do they?

What does a uniform have to do with it?

Who so you think is paying for the suicide belts, Barneys?

[The African Queen]

stand for justice...

Pal "Freedom Fighters" have to hide behind babies. Real nice. You're real colors show clearly. Your interest in peace in zero. Your hatred of Jews is large.

They have been given every opportunity for self-rule and purposely don't try to better themselves.

They are nothing but crybabies. Just like you.

[Feif]

stand for justice...
So you admit they do all the things that were asked about. You just try to justify it by saying they have no other choice. Let me explain something to you Shalom:
1. Using human shields is NEVER justified, regardless of how weak you may be.
2. You can't guess that people on a bus MAY be an intelligence officer and count on that to blow up the bus. Besides, amas and Islamic Jihad never claimed they were targeting a soldier or any specific person on a bus. They simply want to spread terror.
3. When have they punished and tried people who attacked Israel? And how does that improve the quality of life for their citizens?
4. Because children don't have regular weapons it's ok for them to throw rocks and molotov cocktails at soldiers? They shouldn't be attacking them at all, even if they did have regular weapons. They weren't placed into ghettos. They started a war of agression against Israel and lost. They're lucky to be alive, and lucky that Israel doesn't deport them all like they deserve. those that wanted to stay and live peacefully in Israel were given the choice. the ones in the refugee camps are the ones who turned down that offer.

[2pac Shakur]

Shalom, please cite the last time that HAMAS apologized for killing anyone. Can you cite ANY time HAMAS apologized for killing anyone? Please note that gloating/taking credit <> apologizing.

Brad

Some apology...

An Israeli inquiry concluded that the blast was caused by an explosive buried in the sand, not from Israeli shelling on the afternoon of the Palestinian family's beach picnic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_blast_probe_4;_ylt=Avm1RaOClQnntyxEESdhAD8U vioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[fallout]

Some apology...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060613/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_blast_probe_4;_ylt=Avm1RaOClQnntyxEESdhAD8U vioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Tupac this has gone beyond absurd, even for you.

Hamas plants a mine that kills Palestinians and Israel needs to apologize?

[Guerilla poster]

Tupac this has gone beyond absurd, even for you.

Hamas plants a mine that kills Palestinians and Israel needs to apologize?

Facts are funny things, I have read that the injuries don't seem to fit with a planted mine, more upper torso injuries than lower torso.

[fallout]

Facts are funny things, I have read that the injuries don't seem to fit with a planted mine, more upper torso injuries than lower torso.


Where? I read the CNN link above.

[Feif]

Facts are funny things, I have read that the injuries don't seem to fit with a planted mine, more upper torso injuries than lower torso.
Maybe so, but there is also no evidence of an artillery strike, no crater and no shrapnel. At first the Palestinians refused to let the Israelis come and investigate. Gee, I wonder why?

[fallout]

Facts are funny things, I have read that the injuries don't seem to fit with a planted mine, more upper torso injuries than lower torso.


I guess I should read it all the way to the end.

Jury still out? Will we ever know?

[Guerilla poster]

Maybe so, but there is also no evidence of an artillery strike, no crater and no shrapnel. At first the Palestinians refused to let the Israelis come and investigate. Gee, I wonder why?

I guess your mind is made up already.

[Guerilla poster]

I guess I should read it all the way to the end.

Jury still out? Will we ever know?

Doubtful actually.

[Feif]

I guess your mind is made up already.
No, it's not. But I think yours is. I was just posting the other view. I don't know who was responsible for it. But I do know that if Israel was, then it was a mistake, which is more than you can say about any strikes against Israeli civilians.

[Guerilla poster]

No, it's not. But I think yours is. I was just posting the other view. I don't know who was responsible for it. But I do know that if Israel was, then it was a mistake, which is more than you can say about any strikes against Israeli civilians.


No, my mind is not made up, I could see how either could be responsible and not admitting it. this thread has nothing to do with Israeli citizens being killed so it as relevants as dolphins being killed in tuna hunts.

[Walla]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355528023&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Highlighting in the article below by me. -Walla]HRW: We can't contradict IDF findings
Yaakov Katz, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 19, 2006

While sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, the Human Rights Watch conceded Monday night for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF's exonerating findings.

On Monday, Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi - head of the IDF inquiry commission that cleared the IDF of responsibility for the blast - met with Marc Garlasco, a military expert from the HRW who had last week claimed that the blast was caused by an IDF artillery shell. Following the three-hour meeting, described by both sides as cordial and pleasant, Garlasco praised the IDF's professional investigation into the blast, which he said was most likely caused by unexploded Israeli ordnance left laying on the beach, a possibility also raised by Klifi and his team.

"We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. While Klifi's team did a "competent job" to rule out the possibility that the blast was caused by artillery fire, there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration.

The main argument between Klifi and HRW surrounded the timeline of the blast, which the IDF said took between 16:57 and 15:10, at least 10 minutes after artillery fire in the area had stopped. HRW however disputes this claim and basing itself on Palestinian hospital documentation, claims that the explosion actually took place right around the time of the IDF artillery fire.

Meanwhile Monday, The Post learned that the IDF was currently inspecting a second piece of shrapnel doctors had retrieved from one of the Palestinians wounded in the blast and currently being treated at Soroka Hospital in Beersheba. A first piece of shrapnel, examined by the IDF as well as by an independent academic institute in Beersheba was found to not have come from a 155 mm shell, the type used in IDF artillery attacks on Kassam launch sites in the Gaza Strip. The second piece of shrapnel, sources said, was currently being examined in an IDF lab.

Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians.

"We do not believe the Israelis were targeting civilians." Garlasco said. "We just want to know if it was an Israeli shell that killed the Palestinians."

Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made "a good assessment" when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach.

'We differ when it comes to other pieces of information from other sources that don't relate to the military strike such as the timing and the type of injuries," Mair explained. "While they [the IDF] made a very good presentation, we still think there are enough unanswered questions that have not been examined by Klifi's team…and that is why we believe there should be an independent investigation."

[Walla]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3263509,00.html

Annan retracts remarks on IDF's Gaza blast probe

After meeting with Israel's UN Ambassador Danny Gillerman, Secretary General Kofi Annan pulls back comments he said after conclusion of IDF report on civilian casualties on Gaza beach
Yitzhak Benhorin

United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan retracted remarks he made on Israel after the incident in which seven Palestinian family members died in Gaza.

Annan said Israel's position on the incident is "very strange."

Following a meeting Thursday with Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Gillerman, he told reporters that he had responded to "media speculations."

Annan added that he is waiting for Israel's final report on the incident.

'Israeli citizens under daily threat'

Israel officials condemned Annan's comments which came in response to a journalist's question about Israel's findings: "Finding an explosives device on the beach is strange."

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni ordered Gillerman to protest Annan's comments during their meeting on Thursday.

Gillerman told Annan that Israeli citizens are under a daily threat from Qassam attacks and Israel has the right to defend its citizens.

In a press conference after the meeting, Annan said: "I responded to speculations in the press. The answer was given before Israel published its findings. We need to wait for Israel to publish its final report."

Annan said he spoke by phone with Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz and IDF chief of general staff Lit.-Gen. Dan Halutz on Tuesday refuted suspicions that the Palestinian family was killed by a wayward army shell.

But Marc Garlasco, a former Pentagon analyst, who visited the site of the attack, said his probe revealed that it is most likely that an IDF 155mm shell killed the Palestinians.

[2pac Shakur]

Israeli aircraft fired the missile at a car carrying militants in the crowded Jebaliya camp in northern
Gaza Strip, but instead killed a 5-year-old boy and two girls aged 7 and 16, hospital officials said.

Eight other people were injured in the blast, which
Israel's Channel 2 TV said was "another failed assassination attempt, and again innocent civilians were hit." Hundreds of angry Palestinians gathered around the wrecked car in a narrow street.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_gaza;_ylt=AmwEx1tHt7SgvAyJ4Clb_osLewg F;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Now blame this one on the Pals.

[Y2Mozz]

CAR SWARM

[Walla]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060620/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_gaza;_ylt=AmwEx1tHt7SgvAyJ4Clb_osLewg F;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Now blame this one on the Pals.2 points:

1. (Not relevant to your question) Note the key words in the quote, "Israeli aircraft fired the missile at a car carrying militants..." -- contrast that with Palestinian "militants" that (and I use the word "that" rather than "who" because they don't deserve to be grouped with humans) target -- and manually shoot -- unarmed pregnant women women and their children ( http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpalestineterrorism127691.html ) After spraying the station wagen with bullets, the Palestinian terrorists walked up to the 4 terrified little girls and shot each one of them twice in the head, police said. The 8-month-old pregnant mother was shot in her belly at point blank range as she tried to cover her childrenand chase 5-year old girls under their beds to shoot them at point-blank range ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/1954620.stm )The Israeli army said three attackers dressed in what appeared to be army uniforms entered Adora and started going house to house, entering two of them and shooting through the windows of others.

One of those killed was a woman lying in bed - her husband was injured in the attack.

A five-year-old girl was also killed while hiding under her bed.

2. To your point: Look up Human shields and the Fourth Geneva Convention ( Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3516, 75 U.N.T.S. 287, art. 28 ( http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Article_28 ))Article 28

The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

[2pac Shakur]

Shalom, please cite the last time that HAMAS apologized for killing anyone. Can you cite ANY time HAMAS apologized for killing anyone? Please note that gloating/taking credit <> apologizing.

Brad


Brad -

What do you think of the Israelis denying responsibility? Do you believe them, ore are they ducking apologizing - which you indicated made things better somehow?

[2pac Shakur]

Hezbollah deputy leader Sheik Naim Kassem denied in an telephone interview with Al-Jazeera that his group fired any rockets at Haifa, adding this will happen if "Beirut or its southern suburbs are attacked."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_rocket_attack;_ylt=Avl0axj6ClEnkHs2K05nVeoL ewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Only Israel is allowed to deny responsibility.

[doubter]

If you say you are going to fire rockets at a specific town, then rockets are fired from your last known location at this specific town, the denial of firing the rockets is a little weak.

[SamTheEagle]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_rocket_attack;_ylt=Avl0axj6ClEnkHs2K05nVeoL ewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Only Israel is allowed to deny responsibility.

You do realize that for Hezbollah to deny firing those rockets, it would mean that the Iranian soldiers hanging out down there did, yes?

[Ronald Reagan]

Maybe so, but there is also no evidence of an artillery strike, no crater and no shrapnel. At first the Palestinians refused to let the Israelis come and investigate. Gee, I wonder why?

It's obvious, right. Both sides were going to pin it on each other. Facts are lost in conflicts, which is why couting sins is useless. Well, you can use it to feel better about your beliefs/desires, I guess.

History is written by the winner.

[2pac Shakur]

You do realize that for Hezbollah to deny firing those rockets, it would mean that the Iranian soldiers hanging out down there did, yes?

Yea, sure.
And if Israel didn't fire on the Gaza beach, it must've been done by Iran.
Heck, I think Iran is responsible for Zidane's redcard. :shake:

While Israel continues to destroy Lebanon, this crucial denial by Hizbullah was buried towards the end of the news report.

Olmert had ordered the army to intensify the offensive after a barrage of rockets hit towns in northern Israel, including the Mediterranean port city of Haifa, killing two people.

* * *

Hezbollah, which has threatened to avenge the "massacres" of Lebanese by Israel, DENIED however that it was involved the Haifa attack.

If they didn't do it, then I'll give you three guesses to name WHO did.

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/israel-pounds-beirut-hizbullah-denies.html

Why is an Israelis denial of responsibility accepted as fact, but Hezbollah's denial is ignored? I know - it's because Muslims are genetically pre-disposed towards evil.

[Basso]

In this case the denial seems unlikely, but as soon as a HRW investigates and says they cannot refute the denail, I'll change my mind.

[2pac Shakur]

Israel's investigation has been completed. Results:

Life in Gaza's a beach - then you die.

[2pac Shakur]

This was originally meant as a response to a another diary. It ended up being too long and would have really messed up the formatting and screwed that diary up. I decided to post it on its own because I believe it contains information that people should be aware of. This is to give some perspective on one of the players in the current conflict -- Israel. This is just a smattering of highlights of news stories that don't seem to get much play here in the US. Its just 6 months in the life of Israel. I think it is important to remember that after Israel killed a family on a beach in Gaza their first reaction was to deny it. Then they tried to pin it on Hamas. After the shrapnel evidence revealed that they were indeed behind it, they reluctantly admitted guilt. I believe that fits the pattern of how they operate and speaks to their character. The current Gaza situtation was not started by a soldier being captured. They are not a country that, in my opinion, represents our values but rather one we generally oppose.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/16/165555/760

[Ohel Moed]

bumped...

A video has recently been made which casts doubt on "the official" version of the Gaza Beach tragedy.

www.seconddraft.org/movies.php

(while you're at it, check out the al Durah videos below the Gaza Beach one if you haven't already.)

[2pac Shakur]

bumped...

A video has recently been made which casts doubt on "the official" version of the Gaza Beach tragedy.

www.seconddraft.org/movies.php

(while you're at it, check out the al Durah videos below the Gaza Beach one if you haven't already.)

Who released the video?

[Ohel Moed]

Who released the video(s)?
Feif and I did. Zoidberg did the editing. There. Now I can safely assume you won't watch them.

[Feif]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/world/middleeast/02mideast.html?ei=5065&en=3db68bba4884b1ec&ex=1205038800&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
Israeli aircraft and troops attacked Palestinian positions in northern Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 54 people and wounding more than 100 in the deadliest day of fighting in more than a year. Two Israeli soldiers were killed and seven wounded, the military said.

The Israeli attacks, mostly from the air on a clear, bright day, were aimed at stopping rocket fire from Gaza into Israel, the Israelis said, especially after Ashkelon, a large city 10 miles from Gaza, came under fire from more advanced, Katyusha-style rockets of Iranian design.

Half the dead were reported to be Hamas gunmen or those belonging to affiliated groups like Islamic Jihad. But at least 19 Palestinian civilians also died in the heavily populated area, including four children, according to Dr. Moawiya Hassanain of the Gazan Health Ministry.
...
Most residents hid in their homes. The Palestinian dead on Saturday included at least four children, two of whom, brother and sister, 11 and 12, respectively, died in their beds from shrapnel, medics said.

Hamas said that one girl, Malak Karfaneh, 6, died Friday night from an Israeli strike on Beit Hanun in northern Gaza, but residents said that a Palestinian rocket had fallen short and landed near the house. , killing her and wounding three siblings.
Israel doesn't need to bomb Gaza. Hamas does it themselves. Of course, they blame Israel. Just like the beach attack, right 2pac? Except that now, even the Palestinian residents admit it was Hamas's fault.

[Ohel Moed]

Israel needs to quit trying to play the victim card in the media when they kill more palestinians every year than the other way around.
Blame that on the media, not Israel.

[Feif]

Israel needs to quit trying to play the victim card in the media when they kill more palestinians every year than the other way around.

Yes, Israel kills more Palestinians than the other way around. That doesn't make Palestinians the victim. They refuse to stop attacking Israel. Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. The fact that more Palestinians die tells me a few things:
Israel is the better fighter
Palestinians don't get out of the way of Israeli attacks, while Israelis know how to avoid the Palestinian attacks

Also, remember that the Palestinians fight from among the civilian population. The Palestinians said this last round of fighting killed many militants also. Why were both militants and civilians killed? Because the militants stay among the civilians, knowing Israel will target them. Then, people like you go crazy over how Israel is killing innocent people. Once they shelter the militants, they're not innocent bystanders anymore.

[Harry]

Palestinians don't get out of the way of Israeli attacks, while Israelis know how to avoid the Palestinian attacks


Thanks for the new sig.