IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

[2pac Shakur]

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

:joe:
Can you believe Hezbollah forced Israel to do this?
:joe:

Unbelievable!

[Happy Salvador]

1,800 cluster bombs. Liar!

Nice emoticon though

[SamTheEagle]

:joe:
Can you believe that 2pac used a misleading thread title?
:joe:
Unbelievable!

[Happy Salvador]

He's never lied before.

Hmm....

I hope he is OK

[2pac Shakur]

:joe:
Can you believe that 2pac used a misleading thread title?
:joe:
Unbelievable!

:joe:
You mean the title of the article?

Lousy Haaretz!
:joe:

[2pac Shakur]

:joe:

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the inaccuracy of the rockets and the inability to strike individual targets precisely, units would "flood" the battlefield with munitions, accounting for the littered and explosive landscape of post-war Lebanon.

When his reserve duty came to a close, the commander in question sent a letter to Defense Minister Amir Peretz outlining the use of cluster munitions, a letter which has remained unanswered.

'Excessive injury and unnecessary suffering'

It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel.

Yea Israel!
:joe:

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization!

[Happy Salvador]

You still haven't fixed the wretched lie in the title???

How can you expect us to take you seriously??

[2pac Shakur]

You still haven't fixed the wretched lie in the title???

How can you expect us to take you seriously??


A. It's the title of the article.
B. There were 1.2 million bomblets dropped. Read the article.
C. Israel = terrorists.

[2pac Shakur]

I like the discussion on Haaretz:


:joe:
no mercy for the cruel and evil. Hezbollah is a jihadist terror organization that kinaps and bullies israel, israel has every right ti destroy these people to kingdom come!

[SamTheEagle]

:joe:
Can you believe that 2pac used a misleading thread title?
:joe:
Unbelievable!

:joe:
You mean the title of the article?

Lousy Haaretz!
:joe:

Fair enough.

[Happy Salvador]

Quoted lies are still lies....

[2pac Shakur]

Quoted lies are still lies....

Or just me telling you the name of the article I quoted from.
Let's try:

Hey, Happy, what's the title of the article I quoted?
(Once you answer - you are a liar).

Anywho, nice that you are arguing semantics (a million bomblets instead of bombs were dropped). I'm sure you'd react the same way if Hezbollah did the same to Israel.

[Happy Salvador]

You calling lies "semantics" is "semantics."

Lying semantic-arguer

[2pac Shakur]

You calling lies "semantics" is "semantics."

Lying semantic-arguer

Quack.

[Happy Salvador]

Barf

[Aaron Brachowitz]

White phosphorus (WP) rounds are not prohibited by international law. Neither are cluster bombs (which are just, um, bombs). Facts are a you-know-what.

[Zee]

You calling lies "semantics" is "semantics."

Lying semantic-arguer

Anti-semantite.

[2pac Shakur]

White phosphorus (WP) rounds are not prohibited by international law. Neither are cluster bombs (which are just, um, bombs). Facts are a you-know-what.

We only dole out cluster bombs if they won't be used in areas with civilians.
Stoopid facts.

[2pac Shakur]

Quoted lies are still lies....

Unless they are not lies...

Quoting his battalion commander, he said the IDF fired some 1,800 cluster rockets on Lebanon during the war and they contained over 1.2 million cluster bombs. The IDF also used cluster shells fired by 155 mm artillery cannons, so the number of cluster bombs fired on Lebanon is even higher. At the same time, soldiers in the artillery corps testified that the IDF used phosphorous shells, which many experts say is prohibited by international law. According to the claims, the overwhelming majority of the weapons mentioned were fired during the last ten days of the war.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761910.html

I keep hearing how Israel goes out of their way not to harm civilians. Imagine if they didn't! (billions of "smart" bombs)

[Happy Salvador]

You still lied.

[2pac Shakur]

You still lied.

Nope.
You did. And every time you say I lied, you lie again. Liar.

FYI - I saw the movie Liar Liar. The moral of that movie was DON'T lie. It was a smart movie.

[Happy Salvador]

No. You are the Liar.

And you lie so much your pants are on fire.

[2pac Shakur]

Happy Salvador.
Should be Happy Liar.

[Happy Salvador]

http://www.liberalavenger.com/images/openthread/pntsonfire.jpg

Those are your pants

[2pac Shakur]

You:
http://overthehegemon.com/wp-content/photos/22Oct05JudyJudyJudy.jpg

[2pac Shakur]

Meanwhile, for the first time yesterday, the IDF admitted targeting populated areas with cluster munitions. In a statement released by the IDF Spokesman's Office, "the use of cluster munitions against built-up areas was done only against military targets where rocket launches against Israel were identified and after taking steps to warn the civilian population." The statements released by the minister's office contradict Israel Defense Forces' claims - made both during and after the war - regarding the use of cluster munitions.

One IDF version, which remained unchanged until earlier this week, held that the firing of cluster munitions was done in accordance with international law.
On Sunday it was announced that an investigating officer, Brigadier General Michel Ben-Baruch, who was appointed to examine the issue, found that in some cases cluster munitions were used contrary to the orders of Chief of Staff Dan Halutz.

On the basis of these findings, also brought before the Military Advocate General, Brigadier General Avihai Mandelblit, a decision was made to appoint an investigating general to carry out an examination of the circumstances under which the use of cluster munitions was made.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790417.html


A million bomblets left unexploded, 4 million dropped on Lebanon in the summer, didn't matter.... Senator Hillary Clinton, Senator Biden, a number of other Democrats rubber stamped a bill for Israel's continuing use of American cluster bombs. The Republicans, of course, all voted for this bill.
No investigation necessary.

Well, it turns out a. that some were dropped in spite of order NOT to, b. there were other irregularities now being investigated, and c. yesterday, 3 months after the fact, Israel suddenly admitted targeting populated areas in Lebanon. (which apparently is NOT in accordance with international law.)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

[Werewolf]

Did the people firing rockets from Lebanon seek to warn the people of Israel that rockets would be coming their way?

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

Is it in accordance with international law to set up rocket launchers in highly populated areas?

[2pac Shakur]

Did the people firing rockets from Lebanon seek to warn the people of Israel that rockets would be coming their way?

So both Hezbollah and Israel are both terrorist organizations that should not be given US aid?

[2pac Shakur]

Is it in accordance with international law to set up rocket launchers in highly populated areas?

Do 2 wrongs make a right?

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

Last edited by 2pac Shakur : Today at 12:04 PM. Reason: wrong mixed up with right

:rofl:

:tup:

If Hezzie is setting up shop in Allah Square Market, their wrong allows for Israel's "wrong".

[Werewolf]

When Hezbollah violates the laws of war, they lose the protection of the laws of war. I can't drag an artillery piece into a mosque/church/temple and start firing away and demand not to be targeted, because hey, I'm in a holy place.

[oirg]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?hp&ex=1165381200&en=fd2ab91f468ab0e2&ei=5094&partner=homepage


Elias Hanna, a retired Lebanese Army general, said of the Israeli allegations, “Of course there are hidden invisible tunnels, bunkers of missile launchers, bunkers of explosive charges amongst civilians.”
He added: “You cannot separate the southern society from Hezbollah, because Hezbollah is the society and the society is Hezbollah. Hezbollah is holding this society together through its political, military and economic services. It is providing the welfare for the south.”
Asked whether Hezbollah should be seen as responsible for the deaths of Lebanese civilians in the war, he replied: “Of course Hezbollah is responsible. But these people are ready to sacrifice their lives for Hezbollah. If you tell them, ‘Your relative died,’ they will tell you ‘No, he was a martyr.’ The party’s military preparations from 2000 till 2006 took place in their areas. They were of course done with complete secrecy, but in accordance with the civilians.”


The Israeli report included video of what it said were three Hezbollah prisoners being questioned by Israeli military personnel.
Muhammad Srour, a young Hezbollah fighter, said he had initially received training in Iran and was undergoing further training in eastern Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley when the war broke out. He was sent to the front lines.
Like many Hezbollah fighters, he traveled by motorbike, but they were frequently the targets of Israeli forces. While transporting missiles, hidden in cloth, in and around the southern village of Aita al Shaab, “I carried a white flag,” Mr. Srour said.
Hezbollah operated freely from homes in the village, with the permission of residents who had fled. The departing residents either left their doors unlocked or gave their keys to Hezbollah, he said. Mr. Srour acknowledged that homes used by Hezbollah were more likely to draw fire.
But, he said, “better that the house is destroyed and the Israelis don’t enter and come back to conquer Lebanon.”
Another captured fighter, Hussein Suleiman, explained how he had set up a rocket-firing position on the front porch of a house on the outskirts of Aita al Shaab.
A third Hezbollah man, Maher Kourani, said group members had worn civilian clothes, tried never to show their weapons, and traveled in ordinary civilian cars. “We use Volvos, Mercedes, BMW,” he said. “We use Range Rovers, too.”

[2pac Shakur]

:roll:
So I guess it's ok for Israel to drop millions of cluster bombs in residential areas after all.
:roll:

[Feif]

:roll:
So I guess it's ok for Israel to drop millions of cluster bombs in residential areas after all.
:roll:

According to the previous post? Yes, it is. They were no longer residential areas. They became war grounds.

[Guest]

Oh, OK. I'm sure the residents of those areas will understand.

[SirVLCIV]

:roll:
So I guess it's ok for Israel to drop millions of cluster bombs in residential areas after all.
:roll:

According to the previous post? Yes, it is. They were no longer residential areas. They became war grounds.

So of course it's perfectly acceptable to kill everyone. :tup:

[Guest]

According to the previous post? Yes, it is. They were no longer residential areas. They became war grounds.

So of course it's perfectly acceptable to kill everyone. :tup:

They were no longer residents. They became war mongers.

[Ronald Reagan]

You still haven't fixed the wretched lie in the title???

How can you expect us to take you seriously??


A. It's the title of the article.
B. There were 1.2 million bomblets dropped. Read the article.
C. Israel = terrorists.

Every nation is a terrorist when it suits their "interests."

[Feif]

According to the previous post? Yes, it is. They were no longer residential areas. They became war grounds.

So of course it's perfectly acceptable to kill everyone. :tup:

It was a necessary loss in battle. Regrettable, yes, but necessary. If they didn't do that, they woulod have to go house to house, and sustain heavy losses. From Israel's standpoint, the lives of their soldiers are worth more than the lives of the Lebanese. Therefore, they bombed the area.

[oirg]

Oh, OK. I'm sure the residents of those areas will understand.

It seems at least some residents in those areas were complicit.

Hezbollah operated freely from homes in the village, with the permission of residents who had fled. The departing residents either left their doors unlocked or gave their keys to Hezbollah, he said. Mr. Srour acknowledged that homes used by Hezbollah were more likely to draw fire.


Instead of just criticizing Israeli actions, please provide a way for Isreal to minimize civilian casualties under the circumstances.

I can see two ways - full scale invasion and urban house-to-house fighting, a la Fallujah, or Israel eating crow and not responding to the abduction of its soldiers. Neither seems realistic.

[Guest]

It seems at least some residents in those areas were complicit.

Hezbollah operated freely from homes in the village, with the permission of residents who had fled. The departing residents either left their doors unlocked or gave their keys to Hezbollah, he said. Mr. Srour acknowledged that homes used by Hezbollah were more likely to draw fire.


Instead of just criticizing Israeli actions, please provide a way for Isreal to minimize civilian casualties under the circumstances.

I can see two ways - full scale invasion and urban house-to-house fighting, a la Fallujah, or Israel eating crow and not responding to the abduction of its soldiers. Neither seems realistic.I can see some other ways...they fall somewhere in between

"Do Nothing"

and

"Drop 1 Million Cluster Bombs on Residential Neighborhoods After The Fighting's Over and You're On Your Way Home."

As far as those Israeli soldiers, it's horrible that they were kidnapped. But I think the death and destruction levied upon Lebanese civilians and the ultimate price Israel will pay via repercussions and restution to Lebanon vastly outweigh the benefit of getting those two soldiers back. "Eat Crow" seems (now) like a realistic option to me.

[oirg]

It seems at least some residents in those areas were complicit.



Instead of just criticizing Israeli actions, please provide a way for Isreal to minimize civilian casualties under the circumstances.

I can see two ways - full scale invasion and urban house-to-house fighting, a la Fallujah, or Israel eating crow and not responding to the abduction of its soldiers. Neither seems realistic.I can see some other ways...they fall somewhere in between

"Do Nothing"

and

"Drop 1 Million Cluster Bombs on Residential Neighborhoods After The Fighting's Over and You're On Your Way Home."

As far as those Israeli soldiers, it's horrible that they were kidnapped. But I think the death and destruction levied upon Lebanese civilians and the ultimate price Israel will pay via repercussions and restution to Lebanon vastly outweigh the benefit of getting those two soldiers back. "Eat Crow" seems (now) like a realistic option to me.

Not responding was not realistic from the Isreali perspective - it would only encourage other similar actions. But you already know that.

[Guest]

oirg - here is a transcript of the report I heard regarding Israel's behavior in the last day or so of this conflict...this is a report on the cluster bombs from NPR. I'll highlight the part that stuck with me, and that shaped my view on Israel's behavior this past summer -

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=6154818MICHELE NORRIS, host:

Israel has said it hopes to withdraw the last of its soldiers from Lebanon by the end of the week, turning control of the last captured areas over to international forces and the Lebanese army. But a legacy of Israel's military offensive against Hezbollah will remain on the ground literally in the form of an estimated one million unexploded bomblets dispersed by cluster bombs. U.N. officials say the munitions wound or kill three people a day.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

Washington Post reporter Anthony Shadid has been traveling through southern Lebanon. He joins us from Beirut. Anthony, explain for us if you could what these bomblets look like.

Mr. ANTHONY SHADID (The Washington Post): They're actually remarkably small. They're probably the size of a cell phone, maybe a little bit wider. And they have a white ribbon that comes off the end of them that are used to help their descent. And their color is usually greenish brown.

BLOCK: Now as I understand it, it was not illegal for Israel to use cluster bombs.

Mr. SHADID: Right. Cluster bombs themselves are not banned under international agreement. What is banned is the indiscriminate use of weapons in civilian areas. If they are hit in villages, hit in civilian areas, somebody would argue that these bombs themselves become an indiscriminate weapon and therefore they would be banned under certain international agreement.

BLOCK: What does the U.N. in southern Lebanon saying about the numbers of these bomblets that they're seeing and what kind of progress they're making in diffusing them?

Mr. SHADID: You know, when you talk to U.N. officials, I think most often they're just stunned by the scope of the problem, and not just the scope of the problem itself but the way that the problem is growing. Early on the estimate was there were hundreds of thousands of these bomblets. And now they're talking about as many as a million and perhaps even more than a million.

BLOCK: And you report that a lot of these cluster bombs seem to have been dropped in the very last days of this war.

Mr. SHADID: You know, it's not too strong of a word, I think, to use like dumbfounded when you ask U.N. officials what happened and what the situation is on the ground with the cluster bombs right now. Their understanding and their estimate is that as many as 90 percent of these cluster bombs were fired in the last 72 hours of the conflict, the last three days of the conflict.
You know, why that's the case is still unclear. And Israeli officials have been somewhat tightlipped on what the strategy was and what their sense of the use of the cluster bombs was. But it really isn't clear at this point why such an intensity of these cluster bombs in the last stage of the conflict, and also the repeated hitting of targets.

The head of the U.N. de-mining program, the way he put it to me was that it was the equivalent of shooting at a dead body 20 times.

BLOCK: You said Israeli officials have been pretty tight lipped. What have they had to say to these sorts of criticisms?

Mr. SHADID: The Israeli officials have made the point that cluster bombs are not banned under international law, which is correct. The one statement that they've used several times about the use of the cluster bombs that they were fired within the parameters of international agreement. You know, some people would contest that, obviously, given the situation on the ground in southern Lebanon. But that's pretty much what the Israeli military has said at this point.

BLOCK: When you travel around villages in the south, how much of an effect are these bomblets, these cluster bombs, having on the people who have gone back to the villages in the south?

Mr. SHADID: You know, it's striking the degree, I think, of paralysis that you find in parts of southern Lebanon. I was in one village called Ded Anoon(ph). Not a very big village and in one field right outside of the village residents had collected more than a thousand bomblets and they had just put them in boxes and dug four craters and left them there for U.N. de-miners to eventually destroy.

You're dealing with the tobacco harvest right now, which is important to southern Lebanon. Olive harvest is coming up. It's a very agricultural area. I think more than of half residents down there rely on agriculture for their income. So what I think you're seeing is a certain paralysis of life down there as farmers aren't able, they're too afraid to go into their field. Workers that they used to rely on to pick olives, for instance, or to harvest the tobacco are reluctant as well to go in.

One family I talked to said that they hadn't left their house. They were worried about walking outside of the yard and walking across from these bomblets, which can kill up to, I think, 20 yards, 25 yards.

So it is striking that, you know, the war has ended. There is a cease-fire. But I think in the sense of the cluster bombs and the implications of this return to normalcy to life, you are seeing it slowing down pretty dramatically because of this fear out there of coming across something that could kill you.

BLOCK: You were talking about villagers who had collected a lot of these and put them aside. How do they do that without them detonating?

Mr. SHADID: Well, it's not something for the faint of heart. I mean that's for sure. There is a certain way by pushing a pen in. But I guess if they're handled gingerly enough and they don't explode that - I mean, obviously, de-miners think it's kind of crazy for someone untrained to be picking these up. The going rate, what I heard from residents down there in southern Lebanon, is that some landowners are paying a dollar or two dollar for each bomblet that's recovered.

So it does become pretty lucrative in some ways and I think for an area that's already in bad shape and that's not reviving all that quickly, it becomes very lucrative cash for certain people who are willing to take the risk.

BLOCK: Anthony Shadid of the Washington Post speaking with us from Beirut. Anthony, thanks very much.

Mr. SHADID: My pleasure.

[Guest]

I can see some other ways...they fall somewhere in between

"Do Nothing"

and

"Drop 1 Million Cluster Bombs on Residential Neighborhoods After The Fighting's Over and You're On Your Way Home."

As far as those Israeli soldiers, it's horrible that they were kidnapped. But I think the death and destruction levied upon Lebanese civilians and the ultimate price Israel will pay via repercussions and restution to Lebanon vastly outweigh the benefit of getting those two soldiers back. "Eat Crow" seems (now) like a realistic option to me.

Not responding was not realistic from the Isreali perspective - it would only encourage other similar actions. But you already know that.

Ah, so, now that they went to war and destroyed large chunks of a neighboring nation, all their problems are solved, right? No more danger of kidnapped soldiers?

See my post above...what did Israel gain by dropping 1,000,000 bomblets in the last 72 hours of the war? For that matter, what did Israel gain by invading Lebanon at all?

As I said - Israels had MANY options between dropping cluster bombs on their way out and doing nothing.

Another one might have been - take Hezbollah up on the prisoner exchange they were looking for, like Israel has done several times in the past.

[SirVLCIV]

I can see some other ways...they fall somewhere in between

"Do Nothing"

and

"Drop 1 Million Cluster Bombs on Residential Neighborhoods After The Fighting's Over and You're On Your Way Home."

As far as those Israeli soldiers, it's horrible that they were kidnapped. But I think the death and destruction levied upon Lebanese civilians and the ultimate price Israel will pay via repercussions and restution to Lebanon vastly outweigh the benefit of getting those two soldiers back. "Eat Crow" seems (now) like a realistic option to me.

Not responding was not realistic from the Isreali perspective - it would only encourage other similar actions. But you already know that.

:snort: Did you read her post? Or did you just pick the one line that you didn't like and respond to that?

[oirg]

oirg - here is a transcript of the report I heard regarding Israel's behavior in the last day or so of this conflict...this is a report on the cluster bombs from NPR. I'll highlight the part that stuck with me, and that shaped my view on Israel's behavior this past summer -

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=6154818MICHELE NORRIS, host:

Israel has said it hopes to withdraw the last of its soldiers from Lebanon by the end of the week, turning control of the last captured areas over to international forces and the Lebanese army. But a legacy of Israel's military offensive against Hezbollah will remain on the ground literally in the form of an estimated one million unexploded bomblets dispersed by cluster bombs. U.N. officials say the munitions wound or kill three people a day.

MELISSA BLOCK, host:

Washington Post reporter Anthony Shadid has been traveling through southern Lebanon. He joins us from Beirut. Anthony, explain for us if you could what these bomblets look like.

Mr. ANTHONY SHADID (The Washington Post): They're actually remarkably small. They're probably the size of a cell phone, maybe a little bit wider. And they have a white ribbon that comes off the end of them that are used to help their descent. And their color is usually greenish brown.

BLOCK: Now as I understand it, it was not illegal for Israel to use cluster bombs.

Mr. SHADID: Right. Cluster bombs themselves are not banned under international agreement. What is banned is the indiscriminate use of weapons in civilian areas. If they are hit in villages, hit in civilian areas, somebody would argue that these bombs themselves become an indiscriminate weapon and therefore they would be banned under certain international agreement.

BLOCK: What does the U.N. in southern Lebanon saying about the numbers of these bomblets that they're seeing and what kind of progress they're making in diffusing them?

Mr. SHADID: You know, when you talk to U.N. officials, I think most often they're just stunned by the scope of the problem, and not just the scope of the problem itself but the way that the problem is growing. Early on the estimate was there were hundreds of thousands of these bomblets. And now they're talking about as many as a million and perhaps even more than a million.

BLOCK: And you report that a lot of these cluster bombs seem to have been dropped in the very last days of this war.

Mr. SHADID: You know, it's not too strong of a word, I think, to use like dumbfounded when you ask U.N. officials what happened and what the situation is on the ground with the cluster bombs right now. Their understanding and their estimate is that as many as 90 percent of these cluster bombs were fired in the last 72 hours of the conflict, the last three days of the conflict.
You know, why that's the case is still unclear. And Israeli officials have been somewhat tightlipped on what the strategy was and what their sense of the use of the cluster bombs was. But it really isn't clear at this point why such an intensity of these cluster bombs in the last stage of the conflict, and also the repeated hitting of targets.

The head of the U.N. de-mining program, the way he put it to me was that it was the equivalent of shooting at a dead body 20 times.

BLOCK: You said Israeli officials have been pretty tight lipped. What have they had to say to these sorts of criticisms?

Mr. SHADID: The Israeli officials have made the point that cluster bombs are not banned under international law, which is correct. The one statement that they've used several times about the use of the cluster bombs that they were fired within the parameters of international agreement. You know, some people would contest that, obviously, given the situation on the ground in southern Lebanon. But that's pretty much what the Israeli military has said at this point.

BLOCK: When you travel around villages in the south, how much of an effect are these bomblets, these cluster bombs, having on the people who have gone back to the villages in the south?

Mr. SHADID: You know, it's striking the degree, I think, of paralysis that you find in parts of southern Lebanon. I was in one village called Ded Anoon(ph). Not a very big village and in one field right outside of the village residents had collected more than a thousand bomblets and they had just put them in boxes and dug four craters and left them there for U.N. de-miners to eventually destroy.

You're dealing with the tobacco harvest right now, which is important to southern Lebanon. Olive harvest is coming up. It's a very agricultural area. I think more than of half residents down there rely on agriculture for their income. So what I think you're seeing is a certain paralysis of life down there as farmers aren't able, they're too afraid to go into their field. Workers that they used to rely on to pick olives, for instance, or to harvest the tobacco are reluctant as well to go in.

One family I talked to said that they hadn't left their house. They were worried about walking outside of the yard and walking across from these bomblets, which can kill up to, I think, 20 yards, 25 yards.

So it is striking that, you know, the war has ended. There is a cease-fire. But I think in the sense of the cluster bombs and the implications of this return to normalcy to life, you are seeing it slowing down pretty dramatically because of this fear out there of coming across something that could kill you.

BLOCK: You were talking about villagers who had collected a lot of these and put them aside. How do they do that without them detonating?

Mr. SHADID: Well, it's not something for the faint of heart. I mean that's for sure. There is a certain way by pushing a pen in. But I guess if they're handled gingerly enough and they don't explode that - I mean, obviously, de-miners think it's kind of crazy for someone untrained to be picking these up. The going rate, what I heard from residents down there in southern Lebanon, is that some landowners are paying a dollar or two dollar for each bomblet that's recovered.

So it does become pretty lucrative in some ways and I think for an area that's already in bad shape and that's not reviving all that quickly, it becomes very lucrative cash for certain people who are willing to take the risk.

BLOCK: Anthony Shadid of the Washington Post speaking with us from Beirut. Anthony, thanks very much.

Mr. SHADID: My pleasure.



This is the part that makes all the difference, at least from a legalistic perspective:

What is banned is the indiscriminate use of weapons in civilian areas.

I don't want to get into a fallout with you over word meanings, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that Israeli use of this type of munitions was "indiscriminate" or that the areas where it was used were "civilian".

It is unfortunate that civilian lives were lost - but, to a large degree, Hezbollah bears the responsibility for that.

[SirVLCIV]

Do you think Israel is better or worse off after the prior invasion, in a long-term perspective?

[oirg]

Not responding was not realistic from the Isreali perspective - it would only encourage other similar actions. But you already know that.

:snort: Did you read her post? Or did you just pick the one line that you didn't like and respond to that?

I did read that post, and that was the only concrete opinion that Uma offered. She did not provide any other specific ways to reduce civilian deaths.

[Guest]

:snort: Did you read her post? Or did you just pick the one line that you didn't like and respond to that?

I did read that post, and that was the only concrete opinion that Uma offered. She did not provide any other specific ways to reduce civilian deaths.But there's so many...

1) Don't react
2) prisoner exhange
3) Don't blow up all the bridges and highways between Beirut and the south and then decide later to invade the south, thereby pushing all the civilians north to get stranded next to blown out bridges and roads.
4) Don't drop 1,000,000 CLUSTER BOMBS on villages after the cease fire has already been signed.

I'm sure you can think of more yourself, once you get out of the mental box that Israel never acts irresponsibly.

Now, you tell me...how did dropping a million cluster bombs on villages reduce the risk of Israeli soldiers getting kidnapped, exactly?

[oirg]

Do you think Israel is better or worse off after the prior invasion, in a long-term perspective?

While I think Israel lost this particular confrontation both militarily and from the point of view of worldwide goodwill, I'm not sure that the long-term consequences are necessarily negative - you have a large international force of (hopefully less corrupt) peacekeepers, and also the Sunni awakening of the threat of militant Shiism.

[Guest]

This is the part that makes all the difference, at least from a legalistic perspective:

What is banned is the indiscriminate use of weapons in civilian areas.

I don't want to get into a fallout with you over word meanings, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that Israeli use of this type of munitions was "indiscriminate" or that the areas where it was used were "civilian". Dude, did you read the same article I did?

You know, it's striking the degree, I think, of paralysis that you find in parts of southern Lebanon. I was in one village called Ded Anoon(ph). Not a very big village and in one field right outside of the village residents had collected more than a thousand bomblets and they had just put them in boxes and dug four craters and left them there for U.N. de-miners to eventually destroy.

You're dealing with the tobacco harvest right now, which is important to southern Lebanon. Olive harvest is coming up. It's a very agricultural area. I think more than of half residents down there rely on agriculture for their income. So what I think you're seeing is a certain paralysis of life down there as farmers aren't able, they're too afraid to go into their field. Workers that they used to rely on to pick olives, for instance, or to harvest the tobacco are reluctant as well to go in.

The areas were civilan.

I'm not sure what pretzel you're twisting your mind into to absolve Israel for responsibility for this...perhaps you're convinced that all those civilians were Hezbollah sympathizers?

If so, so what? They deserved to die for their political beliefs?
If not, guess what...I guarantee many of them are now.



It is unfortunate that civilian lives were lost - but, to a large degree, Hezbollah bears the responsibility for that.

Absolutely.

And, likewise, to a large degree, so does Israel.

Sucks to live in that part of the world.

[oirg]

I did read that post, and that was the only concrete opinion that Uma offered. She did not provide any other specific ways to reduce civilian deaths.But there's so many...

1) Don't react
2) prisoner exhange
3) Don't blow up all the bridges and highways between Beirut and the south and then decide later to invade the south, thereby pushing all the civilians north to get stranded next to blown out bridges and roads.
4) Don't drop 1,000,000 CLUSTER BOMBS on villages after the cease fire has already been signed.

I'm sure you can think of more yourself, once you get out of the mental box that Israel never acts irresponsibly.

Now, you tell me...how did dropping a million cluster bombs on villages reduce the risk of Israeli soldiers getting kidnapped, exactly?

I don't think that Israel always acts responsibly, in fact they do not quite often. But not in this case.

From the 4 options, the first 2 would actually increase the likelihood of more sodiers being kidnapped. The remaining 2 state what Israel shouldn't have done, rather than what they should have done.

[Guest]

But there's so many...

1) Don't react
2) prisoner exhange
3) Don't blow up all the bridges and highways between Beirut and the south and then decide later to invade the south, thereby pushing all the civilians north to get stranded next to blown out bridges and roads.
4) Don't drop 1,000,000 CLUSTER BOMBS on villages after the cease fire has already been signed.

I'm sure you can think of more yourself, once you get out of the mental box that Israel never acts irresponsibly.

Now, you tell me...how did dropping a million cluster bombs on villages reduce the risk of Israeli soldiers getting kidnapped, exactly?

I don't think that Israel always acts responsibly, in fact they do not quite often. But not in this case.

From the 4 options, the first 2 would actually increase the likelihood of more sodiers being kidnapped. I guess I just don't think that Israelis soldiers are worth more than Lebanese civilians. So I don't see how preventing the kidnapping of a couple soldiers is more desirable than preventing the deaths of 1000s of people. The remaining 2 state what Israel shouldn't have done, rather than what they should have done.Right. Hence the contraction "don't" at the beginning of each statement.

You asked me what Israel should have done to decrease civilian casualties...well, I'd start with not increasing them unneccessarily.

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

I guess I just don't think that Israelis soldiers are worth more than Lebanese civilians. So I don't see how preventing the kidnapping of a couple soldiers is more desirable than preventing the deaths of 1000s of people. Do you believe that a country should value the lives of their own soldiers more than the lives of the civilians who house the enemy?

[oirg]

This is the part that makes all the difference, at least from a legalistic perspective:



I don't want to get into a fallout with you over word meanings, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that Israeli use of this type of munitions was "indiscriminate" or that the areas where it was used were "civilian". Dude, did you read the same article I did?

You know, it's striking the degree, I think, of paralysis that you find in parts of southern Lebanon. I was in one village called Ded Anoon(ph). Not a very big village and in one field right outside of the village residents had collected more than a thousand bomblets and they had just put them in boxes and dug four craters and left them there for U.N. de-miners to eventually destroy.

You're dealing with the tobacco harvest right now, which is important to southern Lebanon. Olive harvest is coming up. It's a very agricultural area. I think more than of half residents down there rely on agriculture for their income. So what I think you're seeing is a certain paralysis of life down there as farmers aren't able, they're too afraid to go into their field. Workers that they used to rely on to pick olives, for instance, or to harvest the tobacco are reluctant as well to go in.

The areas were civilan.

I'm not sure what pretzel you're twisting your mind into to absolve Israel for responsibility for this...perhaps you're convinced that all those civilians were Hezbollah sympathizers?

I wish I were flexible enough to twist myself into a pretzel or any other tasty shape.

Anyway, from the article I posted, many "civilians" were morethan just sympathizers, they actually abetted Hezbollah by giving them permission (or even keys) to use their homes in residential areas as launching sites.

If so, so what? They deserved to die for their political beliefs?
If not, guess what...I guarantee many of them are now.

The ones that tried to get out when they were warned, but couldn't - clearly not. The ones that stayed without trying to leave - their beloved Hezbollah put them in harms way.


It is unfortunate that civilian lives were lost - but, to a large degree, Hezbollah bears the responsibility for that.

Absolutely.

And, likewise, to a large degree, so does Israel.

Sucks to live in that part of the world.

It is unfortunate. It is such a beautiful, historically and culturally rich area of the world.
.

[Guest]

I guess I just don't think that Israelis soldiers are worth more than Lebanese civilians. So I don't see how preventing the kidnapping of a couple soldiers is more desirable than preventing the deaths of 1000s of people. Do you believe that a country should value the lives of their own soldiers more than the lives of the civilians who house the enemy?
Sure.

But I'm not talking about "civilians who house the enemy." I'm sure you knew that, though.

When you can't argue on solid ground, ask some loaded questions!!

[oirg]

I don't think that Israel always acts responsibly, in fact they do not quite often. But not in this case.

From the 4 options, the first 2 would actually increase the likelihood of more sodiers being kidnapped. I guess I just don't think that Israelis soldiers are worth more than Lebanese civilians. So I don't see how preventing the kidnapping of a couple soldiers is more desirable than preventing the deaths of 1000s of people. The remaining 2 state what Israel shouldn't have done, rather than what they should have done.Right. Hence the contraction "don't" at the beginning of each statement.

You asked me what Israel should have done to decrease civilian casualties...well, I'd start with not increasing them unneccessarily.
It's always easier to say what someone shouldn't do instead of saying what they should do. If this conflict were easy to solve, it would have been done already.

[Guest]

Dude, did you read the same article I did?

You know, it's striking the degree, I think, of paralysis that you find in parts of southern Lebanon. I was in one village called Ded Anoon(ph). Not a very big village and in one field right outside of the village residents had collected more than a thousand bomblets and they had just put them in boxes and dug four craters and left them there for U.N. de-miners to eventually destroy.

You're dealing with the tobacco harvest right now, which is important to southern Lebanon. Olive harvest is coming up. It's a very agricultural area. I think more than of half residents down there rely on agriculture for their income. So what I think you're seeing is a certain paralysis of life down there as farmers aren't able, they're too afraid to go into their field. Workers that they used to rely on to pick olives, for instance, or to harvest the tobacco are reluctant as well to go in.

The areas were civilan.

I'm not sure what pretzel you're twisting your mind into to absolve Israel for responsibility for this...perhaps you're convinced that all those civilians were Hezbollah sympathizers?

I wish I were flexible enough to twist myself into a pretzel or any other tasty shape.

Anyway, from the article I posted, many "civilians" were morethan just sympathizers, they actually abetted Hezbollah by giving them permission (or even keys) to use their homes in residential areas as launching sites.
Which is EXACTLY what I would do for my local militia if foreign invaders were chasing me out of my home.

That proves nothing.
If so, so what? They deserved to die for their political beliefs?
If not, guess what...I guarantee many of them are now.

[COLOR=blue]The ones that tried to get out when they were warned, but couldn't - clearly not. Too bad for them. Israel clearly knew that they were going to kill 100s if not 1000s of totally innocent people.

But those 2 soldiers were far more important than all those people.

SOL I guess.

[Guest]

It's always easier to say what someone shouldn't do instead of saying what they should do. .
It would be even easier for my to say what Israel should do if they ever asked my opinion. But they don't.

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

Do you believe that a country should value the lives of their own soldiers more than the lives of the civilians who house the enemy?
Sure.

But I'm not talking about "civilians who house the enemy." I'm sure you knew that, though.

When you can't argue on solid ground, ask some loaded questions!!The whole point of this is that a substantial part of the area was aiding Hezbollah, knowing full well that they'd be put in danger. Israel warned everyone to leave, those that couldn't, too bad.

[oirg]

Dude, did you read the same article I did?


The areas were civilan.

I'm not sure what pretzel you're twisting your mind into to absolve Israel for responsibility for this...perhaps you're convinced that all those civilians were Hezbollah sympathizers?

I wish I were flexible enough to twist myself into a pretzel or any other tasty shape.

Anyway, from the article I posted, many "civilians" were morethan just sympathizers, they actually abetted Hezbollah by giving them permission (or even keys) to use their homes in residential areas as launching sites.
Which is EXACTLY what I would do for my local militia if foreign invaders were chasing me out of my home.

That proves nothing.
If so, so what? They deserved to die for their political beliefs?
If not, guess what...I guarantee many of them are now.

[color=blue]The ones that tried to get out when they were warned, but couldn't - clearly not. Too bad for them. Israel clearly knew that they were going to kill 100s if not 1000s of totally innocent people.

But those 2 soldiers were far more important than all those people.

SOL I guess.

It's not just the 2 soldiers - it's the precedent.

[SirVLCIV]

Sure.

But I'm not talking about "civilians who house the enemy." I'm sure you knew that, though.

When you can't argue on solid ground, ask some loaded questions!!The whole point of this is that a substantial part of the area was aiding Hezbollah, knowing full well that they'd be put in danger. Israel warned everyone to leave, those that couldn't, too bad.

We've already established that Y2Mozz et al don't give a damn about humanity, so when we want your input on morality, we'll let you know.

There are those of us who believe it is a BAD thing if civilians die. ::shrugs::

[Guest]

Sure.

But I'm not talking about "civilians who house the enemy." I'm sure you knew that, though.

When you can't argue on solid ground, ask some loaded questions!!The whole point of this is that a substantial part of the area was aiding Hezbollah, Not to the extent that they deserved to die. knowing full well that they'd be put in danger. How did they know that? I think you underestimate these villagers' access to CNN. Israel warned everyone to leave, those that couldn't, too bad.No - Israel warned everyone to leave only after they bombed out all the exits out of existance.

Face it - 1000s of innocent people died. If you don't buy that, you have to at least concede it was 100s. To save 2 soldiers.

I'd denounce the US if it made the same decision.

[Guest]

It's not just the 2 soldiers - it's the precedent.
Bullshit.

Other times Israel has been willing to negotiate.

It was reasonable (although not right) for Hezbollah to expect that they would this time, too.

"The precedent" isn't more important than the lives of those innocent people, either.

[oirg]

Which is EXACTLY what I would do for my local militia if foreign invaders were chasing me out of my home.

That proves nothing.

Even if you knew that it was your local militia that started the whole thing?

If you answer in the affirmative, it will prove something.

[oirg]

It's not just the 2 soldiers - it's the precedent.
Bullshit.

Other times Israel has been willing to negotiate.

It was reasonable (although not right) for Hezbollah to expect that they would this time, too.

"The precedent" isn't more important than the lives of those innocent people, either.

The circumstances this time were very different from all other times.

[SirVLCIV]

Which is EXACTLY what I would do for my local militia if foreign invaders were chasing me out of my home.

That proves nothing.

Even if you knew that it was your local militia that started the whole thing?

If you answer in the affirmative, it will prove something.


If said conflict were taken entirely separate from history, that'd be one thing. If we had a history of conflict/skirmish/occupation, that'd be an entirely different thing. The Lebanese do NOT like Israel, with pretty damn good cause.

[Guest]

Even if you knew that it was your local militia that started the whole thing?

If you answer in the affirmative, it will prove something.

If I believed that the local militia was benevolent, had helped me out with loans in bad harvests, had helped my get medicine for my kids, had helped teach my kids to read, etc. etc. etc., sure.

So...what have I proven?

I think the idea that a Lebonese farmer should look beyond the community service performed by Hezbollah and accept that they're the Bad Guys while Israel and the US are the Good Guys is asking to much. You have to consider the information that have available...hint, it's not the New York Times.

[Guest]

Bullshit.

Other times Israel has been willing to negotiate.

It was reasonable (although not right) for Hezbollah to expect that they would this time, too.

"The precedent" isn't more important than the lives of those innocent people, either.

The circumstances this time were very different from all other times.

In what ways?

[oirg]

Even if you knew that it was your local militia that started the whole thing?

If you answer in the affirmative, it will prove something.

If I believed that the local militia was benevolent, had helped me out with loans in bad harvests, had helped my get medicine for my kids, had helped teach my kids to read, etc. etc. etc., sure.

So...what have I proven?

I think the idea that a Lebonese farmer should look beyond the community service performed by Hezbollah and accept that they're the Bad Guys while Israel and the US are the Good Guys is asking to much. You have to consider the information that have available...hint, it's not the New York Times.

Now it is you who's being quite the acrobat.

[SirVLCIV]

If I believed that the local militia was benevolent, had helped me out with loans in bad harvests, had helped my get medicine for my kids, had helped teach my kids to read, etc. etc. etc., sure.

So...what have I proven?

I think the idea that a Lebonese farmer should look beyond the community service performed by Hezbollah and accept that they're the Bad Guys while Israel and the US are the Good Guys is asking to much. You have to consider the information that have available...hint, it's not the New York Times.

Now it is you who's being quite the acrobat.

And it's you who are quite rapidly turning into a waste of time. Good day.

[oirg]

The circumstances this time were very different from all other times.

In what ways?

This was the first time that such a raid was undertaken by Hezbollah during relative quiet. It would be also naive to believe that abducting the 2 soldiers was the ultimate reason for the raid.

[oirg]

Now it is you who's being quite the acrobat.

And it's you who are quite rapidly turning into a waste of time. Good day.

Why so formal?

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

And it's you who are quite rapidly turning into a waste of time. Good day.

Why so formal?British

[2pac Shakur]

JERUSALEM - An Israeli think tank with strong links to the military released videos and testimony Tuesday it said proved Hezbollah guerrillas used civilians as human shields during last summer's war in Lebanon.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061205/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_war_crimes

The same people touting this report are the ones that think AI or HRW are biased.
:roll:

[Guest]

If I believed that the local militia was benevolent, had helped me out with loans in bad harvests, had helped my get medicine for my kids, had helped teach my kids to read, etc. etc. etc., sure.

So...what have I proven?

I think the idea that a Lebonese farmer should look beyond the community service performed by Hezbollah and accept that they're the Bad Guys while Israel and the US are the Good Guys is asking to much. You have to consider the information that have available...hint, it's not the New York Times.

Now it is you who's being quite the acrobat.I know...it is truly difficult to try to see the world from a point of view completely foreign and removed from the experience of your life, the perspective created by the media resources at your disposal, the rhetoric of your government etc. and try to understand why other people behave the way they do. It definitely requires some mental acrobatics.

But I think it's necessary to truly understanding world events.

After all, I don't believe that the Lebanese sympathizers to Hezbollah are just evil, immoral people. I believe they're siding with a group that has treated them well, or, a group that has a least done more for them on a tangible basis than Israel ever has.

Sure, they're misguided. But I don't expect I'd come to a different conclusion given what I imagine to be the facts of their lives.

It'd be much more comforting for me to sit back and dismiss those deaths with "well they should have known better to side with an evil organization, and if they had just stayed out of it Israel wouldn't have destroyed their home." But somehow I just can't be that intellectually lazy.

[Guest]

In what ways?

This was the first time that such a raid was undertaken by Hezbollah during relative quiet. So? It would be also naive to believe that abducting the 2 soldiers was the ultimate reason for the raid.
I don't think that was the ultimate reason for the raid...I think it had more to do with grandstanding, making a point, and getting some prisoners released.

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

But somehow I just can't be that intellectually lazy.:rofl:

[oirg]

This was the first time that such a raid was undertaken by Hezbollah during relative quiet. So?

That's how it was different from all the other times.

It would be also naive to believe that abducting the 2 soldiers was the ultimate reason for the raid.
I don't think that was the ultimate reason for the raid...I think it had more to do with grandstanding, making a point, and getting some prisoners released.

I think their goal was broader than that. At the time of the raid, Lebanese government and Lebanese people's sentiment was strongly anti-Syrian and western-leaning. This was not acceptable to Hezbollah and their backers, so they decided to shake things up, probably anticipating Israel's reaction and the ensuing fallout. They were in a no-lose position, and played their hand well, causing much death and detruction along the way.

.

[Guest]

So?

That's how it was different from all the other times.

It would be also naive to believe that abducting the 2 soldiers was the ultimate reason for the raid.
I don't think that was the ultimate reason for the raid...I think it had more to do with grandstanding, making a point, and getting some prisoners released.

I think their goal was broader than that. At the time of the raid, Lebanese government and Lebanese people's sentiment was strongly anti-Syrian and western-leaning. This was not acceptable to Hezbollah and their backers, so they decided to shake things up, probably anticipating Israel's reaction and the ensuing fallout. They were in a no-lose position, and played their hand well, causing much death and detruction along the way.

.

It really sucks that Israel just played right into their trap, huh? How could they not have figured that out!! Duh.

First, the US played right into Iran's hands by ousting their #1 enemy in the region, and then Israel falls for this trick...

...oh, those crafty Shias....always goading the US and Israel into blowing up countries. How insidious.

...WAIT!! I'VE GOT IT! If we don't want the Shi'ites of Hezbollah and Iran strengthening themselves with the sentiments of common people in the Mid East, why don't we just stop stampeding our militaries all over the place?!?! Why, it just might work!!

[oirg]

So?

That's how it was different from all the other times.


I don't think that was the ultimate reason for the raid...I think it had more to do with grandstanding, making a point, and getting some prisoners released.

I think their goal was broader than that. At the time of the raid, Lebanese government and Lebanese people's sentiment was strongly anti-Syrian and western-leaning. This was not acceptable to Hezbollah and their backers, so they decided to shake things up, probably anticipating Israel's reaction and the ensuing fallout. They were in a no-lose position, and played their hand well, causing much death and detruction along the way.

.

It really sucks that Israel just played right into their trap, huh? How could they not have figured that out!! Duh.

First, the US played right into Iran's hands by ousting their #1 enemy in the region, and then Israel falls for this trick...

...oh, those crafty Shias....always goading the US and Israel into blowing up countries. How insidious.

...WAIT!! I'VE GOT IT! If we don't was the Shi'ites of Hezbollah and Iran strengthening themselves with the sentiments of common people in the Mid East, why don't we just stop stampeding our militaries all over the place?!?! Why, it just might work!!

Iraq and Lebanon are only similar in that they were both mismanaged.

Iraq did not need to happen at all, and Bush will have to answer to his God (and I don't mean Dcik) for this unmitigated disaster.

Something needed to done in case of Hezbollah, although perhaps not what happened.

[Guest]

.

It really sucks that Israel just played right into their trap, huh? How could they not have figured that out!! Duh.

First, the US played right into Iran's hands by ousting their #1 enemy in the region, and then Israel falls for this trick...

...oh, those crafty Shias....always goading the US and Israel into blowing up countries. How insidious.

...WAIT!! I'VE GOT IT! If we don't was the Shi'ites of Hezbollah and Iran strengthening themselves with the sentiments of common people in the Mid East, why don't we just stop stampeding our militaries all over the place?!?! Why, it just might work!!

Iraq and Lebanon are only similar in that they were both mismanaged.

Iraq did not need to happen at all, and Bush will have to answer to his God (and I don't mean Dcik) for this unmitigated disaster.

Something needed to done in case of Hezbollah, although perhaps not what happened.
I can agree with you wholeheartedly there.

I propose a moratorium on invasions and wars until we know they won't be mismanaged.

EDIT - OK I have to disagree with you a bit...Iraq and Lebanon were similar in another way...they both served to increase anti-US/Israel sentiment and to strengthen Shi'ite interests.

[oirg]

It really sucks that Israel just played right into their trap, huh? How could they not have figured that out!! Duh.

First, the US played right into Iran's hands by ousting their #1 enemy in the region, and then Israel falls for this trick...

...oh, those crafty Shias....always goading the US and Israel into blowing up countries. How insidious.

...WAIT!! I'VE GOT IT! If we don't was the Shi'ites of Hezbollah and Iran strengthening themselves with the sentiments of common people in the Mid East, why don't we just stop stampeding our militaries all over the place?!?! Why, it just might work!!

Iraq and Lebanon are only similar in that they were both mismanaged.

Iraq did not need to happen at all, and Bush will have to answer to his God (and I don't mean Dcik) for this unmitigated disaster.

Something needed to done in case of Hezbollah, although perhaps not what happened.
I can agree with you wholeheartedly there.

I propose a moratorium on invasions and wars until we know they won't be mismanaged.

EDIT - OK I have to disagree with you a bit...Iraq and Lebanon were similar in another way...they both served to increase anti-US/Israel sentiment and to strengthen Shi'ite interests.

I guess this is as close to an agreement as we're going to get on this issue. But we both padded out postcount in this thread.

[Guest]

Iraq and Lebanon are only similar in that they were both mismanaged.

Iraq did not need to happen at all, and Bush will have to answer to his God (and I don't mean Dcik) for this unmitigated disaster.

Something needed to done in case of Hezbollah, although perhaps not what happened.
I can agree with you wholeheartedly there.

I propose a moratorium on invasions and wars until we know they won't be mismanaged.

EDIT - OK I have to disagree with you a bit...Iraq and Lebanon were similar in another way...they both served to increase anti-US/Israel sentiment and to strengthen Shi'ite interests.

I guess this is as close to an agreement as we're going to get on this issue. But we both padded out postcount in this thread.
I think we agree on the larger points.

And we were civil!!

And the post-padding, yes, that was good as well.

See ya!!

[2pac Shakur]

WASHINGTON - US President George W. Bush's administration is expected to tell Congress on Monday that Israel may have violated the terms of its arms deals with America during the second Lebanon war when it used US-made cluster munitions, The New York Times reported Sunday.

According to the report, however, the administration is still divided over whether or not Israel's actions constituted a violation of any agreements as the munitions were used in response to Hizbullah rocket attacks from civilian areas during the war.



The Times postulates that President Bush's administration is unlikely to pursue any sanctions against Israel over the matter. The final decision is up to the president, unless Congress passes legislation against Israel.



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3357638,00.html

Hezbollah's fault. Got it.

[Feif]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3357638,00.html

Hezbollah's fault. Got it.

Do you deny the fact that Hezbollah fired weapons from civilian areas?

[General Apathy]

:rofl:

How did I miss that the first time!!

[Dr. John Zoidberg]

Add it to the FAQ: Students should read every thread twice. Just to make sure that you don't miss out on zingers.