61% of American Christians believe God wants them to be financially prosperous

[SamTheEagle]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CNBC/TVReports/PreachingMessageSelfWorth.aspx?GT1=8579

It's an article about Joel Osteen and the wealth gospel. I'm not sure how you could read the New Testament and ever get the idea that God wants Christians to be financially prosperous.

:shake:

[Elisha]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CNBC/TVReports/PreachingMessageSelfWorth.aspx?GT1=8579

It's an article about Joel Osteen and the wealth gospel. I'm not sure how you could read the New Testament and ever get the idea that God wants Christians to be financially prosperous.

:shake:

I really hate this...and unfortunately a lot of my relatives are gripped by this too. Someone needs to shove those passages about "it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..", the story of the dejected lawyer/whoever that was told to sell all and give to the poor then take up his cross to follow Christ and Lazarus and the rich young ruler who died into Joel Osteen's face.

[soyleche]

Here is an interesting quote from Brigham Young that may or may not fit here:

The worst fear that I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty and all manner of persecution, and be true. It my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches, for they will become the richest people on this earth. [Nibley, Brigham Young, p. 128]

[SamTheEagle]

Here is an interesting quote from Brigham Young that may or may not fit here:

The worst fear that I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty and all manner of persecution, and be true. It my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches, for they will become the richest people on this earth. [Nibley, Brigham Young, p. 128]

I think it fits perfectly here. Thanks.

[_BullDog_]

I'm not sure how you could read the New Testament and ever get the idea that God wants Christians to be financially prosperous.

:shake:

I think alot of it comes from the old testament, but then again I never really looked at it.

[ShebaPoe]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CNBC/TVReports/PreachingMessageSelfWorth.aspx?GT1=8579

It's an article about Joel Osteen and the wealth gospel. I'm not sure how you could read the New Testament and ever get the idea that God wants Christians to be financially prosperous.

:shake:

I really hate this...and unfortunately a lot of my relatives are gripped by this too. Someone needs to shove those passages about "it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..", the story of the dejected lawyer/whoever that was told to sell all and give to the poor then take up his cross to follow Christ and Lazarus and the rich young ruler who died into Joel Osteen's face.


You know that the bolded passage above was not to be taken literally, right? They don't mean a "sewing needle" or a camel literally passing through it.

I won't bore you with what it really means (historically) if you already know.

[SamTheEagle]

I really hate this...and unfortunately a lot of my relatives are gripped by this too. Someone needs to shove those passages about "it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..", the story of the dejected lawyer/whoever that was told to sell all and give to the poor then take up his cross to follow Christ and Lazarus and the rich young ruler who died into Joel Osteen's face.


You know that the bolded passage above was not to be taken literally, right? They don't mean a "sewing needle".

Oh yeah? Given that I already know the whole "one of the gates of Jerusalem was known as the 'eye of the needle'" is a myth, what do you think it means?

[_BullDog_]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CNBC/TVReports/PreachingMessageSelfWorth.aspx?GT1=8579

It's an article about Joel Osteen and the wealth gospel. I'm not sure how you could read the New Testament and ever get the idea that God wants Christians to be financially prosperous.

:shake:

I really hate this...and unfortunately a lot of my relatives are gripped by this too. Someone needs to shove those passages about "it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..",

It also bugs me when people use that passage to say being rich is wrong.... but yah, I agree with you.

[soyleche]

Since my last LDS quote fit, let's go with another:

Jacob 2: 18-19 (From the Book of Mormon)

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

[_BullDog_]

Since my last LDS quote fit, let's go with another:

Jacob 2: 18-19 (From the Book of Mormon)

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

This seems to support the prosperity teachings...

[SamTheEagle]

Since my last LDS quote fit, let's go with another:

Jacob 2: 18-19 (From the Book of Mormon)

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

This seems to support the prosperity teachings...

No it doesn't.

[ShebaPoe]

You know that the bolded passage above was not to be taken literally, right? They don't mean a "sewing needle".

Oh yeah? Given that I already know the whole "one of the gates of Jerusalem was known as the 'eye of the needle'" is a myth, what do you think it means?

Simmer down :) I know that one too. Like a lot of things in the Bible, its origin and intent are in some doubt, especially given the translation into different languages, some of which are dead.


This author thinks it was merely liguistics

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:

"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

This first instance concerned dreams and their interpretation and suggested that men only dream that which is natural or possible, not that which is unlikely ever to have occurred to them.

"… who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle."

In this case, the illustration concerns a dispute between two rabbis, one of whom suggests that the other is speaking "things which are impossible".

The camel was the largest animal seen regularly in Israel, whereas in regions where the Babylonian Talmud was written, the elephant was the biggest animal. Thus the aphorism is culturally translated from a camel to an elephant in regions outside of Israel.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm


This one thinks it was a mis-translation and the word should be "rope" as in the rope used to bind ships trying to fit through a needle.

http://www.aramaicnt.org/NEW/index.php


I don't believe in heaven, so I don't get too worried about these things either way. I do believe in burritos, and had one for lunch that was simply magical. As far as god wanting people to be rich, a cursory study of human history would reveal that if there is an all powerful god, his opinion of man is crystal clear: god hates us. rich? poor? I don't think god gives a sh1t.

[SamTheEagle]

Oh yeah? Given that I already know the whole "one of the gates of Jerusalem was known as the 'eye of the needle'" is a myth, what do you think it means?

Simmer down :) I know that one too. Like a lot of things in the Bible, its origin and intent are in some doubt, especially given the translation into different languages, some of which are dead.


This author thinks it was merely liguistics

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:

"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

This first instance concerned dreams and their interpretation and suggested that men only dream that which is natural or possible, not that which is unlikely ever to have occurred to them.

"… who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle."

In this case, the illustration concerns a dispute between two rabbis, one of whom suggests that the other is speaking "things which are impossible".

The camel was the largest animal seen regularly in Israel, whereas in regions where the Babylonian Talmud was written, the elephant was the biggest animal. Thus the aphorism is culturally translated from a camel to an elephant in regions outside of Israel.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm


This one thinks it was a mis-translation and the word should be "rope" as in the rope used to bind ships trying to fit through a needle.

http://www.aramaicnt.org/NEW/index.php


I don't believe in heaven, so I don't get too worried about these things either way. I do believe in burritos, and had one for lunch that was simply magical. As far as god wanting people to be rich, a cursory study of human history would revela that if there is an all powerful god, his opinion of man is crystal clear: god hates us.

This is all interesting, but it says nothing with regards to whether or not the needle was a "sewing needle".

[ShebaPoe]

Simmer down :) I know that one too. Like a lot of things in the Bible, its origin and intent are in some doubt, especially given the translation into different languages, some of which are dead.


This author thinks it was merely liguistics

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:

"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

This first instance concerned dreams and their interpretation and suggested that men only dream that which is natural or possible, not that which is unlikely ever to have occurred to them.

"… who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle."

In this case, the illustration concerns a dispute between two rabbis, one of whom suggests that the other is speaking "things which are impossible".

The camel was the largest animal seen regularly in Israel, whereas in regions where the Babylonian Talmud was written, the elephant was the biggest animal. Thus the aphorism is culturally translated from a camel to an elephant in regions outside of Israel.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm


This one thinks it was a mis-translation and the word should be "rope" as in the rope used to bind ships trying to fit through a needle.

http://www.aramaicnt.org/NEW/index.php


I don't believe in heaven, so I don't get too worried about these things either way. I do believe in burritos, and had one for lunch that was simply magical. As far as god wanting people to be rich, a cursory study of human history would revela that if there is an all powerful god, his opinion of man is crystal clear: god hates us.

This is all interesting, but it says nothing with regards to whether or not the needle was a "sewing needle".

especially the burrito!

[_BullDog_]

This seems to support the prosperity teachings...

No it doesn't.

how so?

[SamTheEagle]

This is all interesting, but it says nothing with regards to whether or not the needle was a "sewing needle".

especially the burrito!

I'm confused. The only interpretation I've ever heard that denies the needle was the one which said it was a gate. All of the others try to explain the camel some other way. I though, since you agreed the gate thing was a myth, that you'd be offering another suggestion for what the needle was, given your original post. Oh well.

[SamTheEagle]

No it doesn't.

how so?

It says nothing about personal financial prosperity.

[Levin]

No it doesn't.

how so?
The "prosperity gospel" as it has been preached to me is that wealth is a blessing of being a believer that need not necessarily be shared.

The verse Soyleche quoted from the Book of Mormon states that God is willing to bless His followers with wealth specifically for the purpose of sharing it with the poor. It says nothing about blessing them so that they can have big houses. He makes no such promise.

[ressap maxe]

I really hate this...and unfortunately a lot of my relatives are gripped by this too. Someone needs to shove those passages about "it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..", the story of the dejected lawyer/whoever that was told to sell all and give to the poor then take up his cross to follow Christ and Lazarus and the rich young ruler who died into Joel Osteen's face.


You know that the bolded passage above was not to be taken literally, right? They don't mean a "sewing needle" or a camel literally passing through it.

I won't bore you with what it really means (historically) if you already know.

An SNL skit with Alec Balwin Comes to mind here. Does anyone else remember which one I am talking about? It was pretty funny.

[_BullDog_]

how so?
The "prosperity gospel" as it has been preached to me is that wealth is a blessing of being a believer that need not necessarily be shared.

The verse Soyleche quoted from the Book of Mormon states that God is willing to bless His followers with wealth specifically for the purpose of sharing it with the poor. It says nothing about blessing them so that they can have big houses. He makes no such promise.

But as with most of the 'prosperity gospel' it states the riches will come sipmly becuase of your belief. Whethr or not you think you will be rich to live in a big house or give to the poor simply becuase you believe is mistaken. I'm fairly certain the book of mormon does not teach that either. And that is the problem with most of the prosperity gospel, most of the teachings are twisted, some just a little, to fit what they want. For some are rich and some are not but neither is an indication of ones faith.

[Lucy]

The Jewish Bible says that if the Jewish people follow God's teachings, they will prosper as a people, but I don't think there's anything in it about personal prosperity.

[Sew Lining]

Yes, it's true. G-d wants me, a Christian, to be wealthy. And He wants to bless all of you who do His will. I'll be PMing you with the address to send your checks.;)

[Jack]

Despite His warnings on adultery, coveting, etc. God wants me to have sex with Joel Osteen's wife in order to show her what a real man's like.

http://www.tbn.org/watch/images/programs/joelandvic_osteen.jpg