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Mikenator
10-02-2006, 03:21 PM
:cry:

Levin
10-02-2006, 03:22 PM
Isn't there a AO Standard of Practice on documentation?

MyKenk
10-02-2006, 03:22 PM
Giraldi gets it tomorrow...

The Mantastic Actuary
10-02-2006, 03:24 PM
why are you sad. he was a horrible manager. I don't see why people love him so much, it is def not anything to do with his managing

shadyridr
10-02-2006, 03:24 PM
Giraldi gets it tomorrow...

Buster Olney was on the radio this morning and said Girardi is not tops on Hendrys list.

MyKenk
10-02-2006, 03:25 PM
oh, sorry... I meant giraldi gets FIRED tomorrow... oops!

Dr T Non-Fan
10-02-2006, 03:32 PM
"Fired" = "Contract expired"? Interesting.

I agree that he's not a great manager. Certainly not worth the $3.5 million per season he got from the Cubs. And he doesn't think very well, either, and his mouth reflected that.

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 03:37 PM
Isn't there a AO Standard of Practice on documentation?


This was a "draft- subject to peer review". Now that I have your comments, I would like to add the following:

Baker out as Cubs manager

By RICK GANO, AP Sports Writer
October 2, 2006


CHICAGO (AP) -- Dusty Baker is out as the Chicago Cubs' manager following a last-place finish and a failure to take the team to the World Series in his four years.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuqJ24fea4YN5o9b28rcM9g5nYcB?slug=ap-cubs-baker&prov=ap&type=lgns

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 03:38 PM
why are you sad. he was a horrible manager. I don't see why people love him so much, it is def not anything to do with his managing


Who says I'm a Cubs fan? I'm sad to see him go all the same.

Kohl
10-02-2006, 03:42 PM
It was a great first year as Dusty pitched Wood and Prior into the ground. His starting five that year pitched insane innings. As many, if not most, Cubbie fans proclaimed him a genious, others mentioned the end result correctly.

Dusty Baker's comment about whites not having the endurance for day games still makes me laugh and shake my head.

The Mantastic Actuary
10-02-2006, 03:46 PM
why are you sad. he was a horrible manager. I don't see why people love him so much, it is def not anything to do with his managing


Who says I'm a Cubs fan? I'm sad to see him go all the same.

I never said you were a fan. But why are you sad to see him go? Let me guess, you'll miss watching your team play such a mis-managed team?

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 03:49 PM
Who says I'm a Cubs fan? I'm sad to see him go all the same.

I never said you were a fan. But why are you sad to see him go? Let me guess, you'll miss watching your team play such a mis-managed team?

There you go. I knew you could figure it out. They don't make you take all those exams for nothing, do they.

erosewater
10-02-2006, 04:31 PM
It was a great first year as Dusty pitched Wood and Prior into the ground. His starting five that year pitched insane innings. As many, if not most, Cubbie fans proclaimed him a genious, others mentioned the end result correctly.


211, 211.1, and 214 = insane? Wood, Prior and Zambrano pitched a lot of innings that year, but not so much that you could call it insane. One of the things people criticized Dusty for (after the fact) was pitching them too much "down the stretch" and tiring them out. But take a look at the gamelogs for those three for the last couple months of 2003.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=5982&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6787&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6559&year=2003

With only a couple of exceptions, the high pitch count games they had at the end were very close games. The Cubs did not have all that great of a bullpen that year and they were in a pennant race, it's hard to fault Dusty for leaving them out there in those games. They only won the division by one game, and didn't lock it up until the 2nd to last game of the season. Prior's last 4 games he averaged 125 pitches, but the score of those games? 2-3, 3-2, 4-1, 4-2. They lose one more of those games and they don't make the playoffs. I'd rather go down with my best pitcher on the mound than miss the opportunity because Dusty decided to bring in Mike Remlinger.

The funniest part is that if Alex Gonzalez (who was one of the most reliable SS in the league at the time) fields a routine groundball, the Cubs escape the Bartman inning and go to the World Series, and no one would be talking about Dusty overworking his pitchers. Curt Schilling put his career at risk pitching with a stapled together ankle tendon, I don't recall anyone calling out Francona for letting him do that. Josh Beckett was worked nearly as hard at the end of 2003 and in the playoffs, (he threw 4 innings of relief two days after a 115 pitch outing) but no one said Jack McKeon was abusing him. Why? Because they won.

I don't like Dusty at all, and I'm thrilled to see him gone, but all of the 20-20 hindsight regarding him abusing his pitchers in 2003 has gone on way too much ever since that one fateful inning.

shadyridr
10-02-2006, 04:39 PM
It was a great first year as Dusty pitched Wood and Prior into the ground. His starting five that year pitched insane innings. As many, if not most, Cubbie fans proclaimed him a genious, others mentioned the end result correctly.


211, 211.1, and 214 = insane? Wood, Prior and Zambrano pitched a lot of innings that year, but not so much that you could call it insane. One of the things people criticized Dusty for (after the fact) was pitching them too much "down the stretch" and tiring them out. But take a look at the gamelogs for those three for the last couple months of 2003.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=5982&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6787&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6559&year=2003

With only a couple of exceptions, the high pitch count games they had at the end were very close games. The Cubs did not have all that great of a bullpen that year and they were in a pennant race, it's hard to fault Dusty for leaving them out there in those games. They only won the division by one game, and didn't lock it up until the 2nd to last game of the season. Prior's last 4 games he averaged 125 pitches, but the score of those games? 2-3, 3-2, 4-1, 4-2. They lose one more of those games and they don't make the playoffs. I'd rather go down with my best pitcher on the mound than miss the opportunity because Dusty decided to bring in Mike Remlinger.

The funniest part is that if Alex Gonzalez (who was one of the most reliable SS in the league at the time) fields a routine groundball, the Cubs escape the Bartman inning and go to the World Series, and no one would be talking about Dusty overworking his pitchers. Curt Schilling put his career at risk pitching with a stapled together ankle tendon, I don't recall anyone calling out Francona for letting him do that. Josh Beckett was worked nearly as hard at the end of 2003 and in the playoffs, (he threw 4 innings of relief two days after a 115 pitch outing) but no one said Jack McKeon was abusing him. Why? Because they won.

I don't like Dusty at all, and I'm thrilled to see him gone, but all of the 20-20 hindsight regarding him abusing his pitchers in 2003 has gone on way too much ever since that one fateful inning.

It really has nothing to do with IP but more so number of pitches thrown. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano are all strikeout pitchers so 210 innings pitched for them is a lot more pitches thrown then 210 innings pitched for say Greg Maddux.

td25er
10-02-2006, 04:43 PM
no one complained about Brenly in 2001 when Schilling started 3 games and Johnson started 2 and relieved in game 7 after starting game 6 (and amazingly had 3 wins in the Series)....b/c they won....it isn't Dusty's fault that Prior and Wood are women....but Dusty is a complete idiot, only overshadowed by the other idiot in chicago (ozzie, but at least he has a ring)

td25er
10-02-2006, 04:44 PM
211, 211.1, and 214 = insane? Wood, Prior and Zambrano pitched a lot of innings that year, but not so much that you could call it insane. One of the things people criticized Dusty for (after the fact) was pitching them too much "down the stretch" and tiring them out. But take a look at the gamelogs for those three for the last couple months of 2003.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=5982&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6787&year=2003
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6559&year=2003

With only a couple of exceptions, the high pitch count games they had at the end were very close games. The Cubs did not have all that great of a bullpen that year and they were in a pennant race, it's hard to fault Dusty for leaving them out there in those games. They only won the division by one game, and didn't lock it up until the 2nd to last game of the season. Prior's last 4 games he averaged 125 pitches, but the score of those games? 2-3, 3-2, 4-1, 4-2. They lose one more of those games and they don't make the playoffs. I'd rather go down with my best pitcher on the mound than miss the opportunity because Dusty decided to bring in Mike Remlinger.

The funniest part is that if Alex Gonzalez (who was one of the most reliable SS in the league at the time) fields a routine groundball, the Cubs escape the Bartman inning and go to the World Series, and no one would be talking about Dusty overworking his pitchers. Curt Schilling put his career at risk pitching with a stapled together ankle tendon, I don't recall anyone calling out Francona for letting him do that. Josh Beckett was worked nearly as hard at the end of 2003 and in the playoffs, (he threw 4 innings of relief two days after a 115 pitch outing) but no one said Jack McKeon was abusing him. Why? Because they won.

I don't like Dusty at all, and I'm thrilled to see him gone, but all of the 20-20 hindsight regarding him abusing his pitchers in 2003 has gone on way too much ever since that one fateful inning.

It really has nothing to do with IP but more so number of pitches thrown. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano are all strikeout pitchers so 210 innings pitched for them is a lot more pitches thrown then 210 innings pitched for say Greg Maddux.
that's a great point...never thought about that

shadyridr
10-02-2006, 04:50 PM
no one complained about Brenly in 2001 when Schilling started 3 games and Johnson started 2 and relieved in game 7 after starting game 6 (and amazingly had 3 wins in the Series)....b/c they won....it isn't Dusty's fault that Prior and Wood are women....but Dusty is a complete idiot, only overshadowed by the other idiot in chicago (ozzie, but at least he has a ring)

2 differences. Those guys were at the tail end of their careers and were used to the innings. And secondly Dusty did it throughout the regular season as well. Not just the playoffs.

erosewater
10-02-2006, 04:55 PM
It really has nothing to do with IP but more so number of pitches thrown. Wood, Prior, and Zambrano are all strikeout pitchers so 210 innings pitched for them is a lot more pitches thrown then 210 innings pitched for say Greg Maddux.

I know, which is why the bulk of my post addressed the pitch counts and not the innings. (I only mentioned the innings in response to Kohl) Their pitch counts were high, but not so high as to be considered "insane" like Kohl said.

erosewater
10-02-2006, 05:02 PM
2 differences. Those guys were at the tail end of their careers and were used to the innings. And secondly Dusty did it throughout the regular season as well. Not just the playoffs.

To address the 2nd point, Johnson averaged 116 pitches/start that year, his 7th of 8 consecutive years averaging more than Prior's 113 in 2003. He was a veteran, yes, but the idea that Dusty was unique in his pitcher (over)use in the regular season is inaccurate.

The point is that you cannot single out Dusty for Prior and Wood's injury woes, when there are countless other examples of pitchers being worked just as hard or harder, and the difference between the ones we criticize and the ones we give a pass is based merely on if the team wins. The Cubs blew it, so Dusty takes the heat. If AGonz fields that ball and the Cubs go on to win, Prior and Wood still would have gotten hurt the next year, but instead of bashing Dusty everyone would have talked about how they gave it their all and finally brought a WS championship to Chicago. We would have heard all of the exact same things we heard about Curt Schilling when he missed most of 2005 after stapling his ankle back together in the 2004 playoffs.

The simple fact is, without pitching Wood and Prior so much in 2003, the Cubs never would have been in the position to have that playoff collapse. They would have been watching from home. Who knows, maybe they would have watched from home and then came back even beter in 2004 and gotten even farther. But I'm glad they took the chance and got as close as they did. He worked them hard, but it's not like they were throwing 150 pitches on 2 days rest.

Flying Squirrel
10-02-2006, 05:15 PM
I can't blame Dusty for overusing pitchers.

Prior was routinely touted as having 'perfect' mechanics. I think he's turned out to just be more injury prone.

Wood has been plagued by bad mechanics his entire career. Blew out an elbow long before Dusty had him.

Where are the injuries to Matt Clement and Carlos Zambrano, both those guys pitched a bunch of innings for Dusty.

That being said, I don't think Dusty really got that fair a shake in Chicago. The only seasons where he had his starters together for most of the season they averaged 88.5 wins. His teams have been plagued with injuries. At least you could argue he has had more than his share of season-wrecking injuries.

What could be interesting is to see what happens next year, especially if the pitchers do get healthy. Will it be [Pinella/Girardi/Showalter/...]'s great management?

knowles
10-02-2006, 05:50 PM
Baseball Prospectus had a great article on Wood/Prior being overpitched that year and how it's led to continuing problems. If you haven't read it, it's worth your time and $4.99 monthly scrip. It's a rather convincing argument concerning young pitchers in general and just uses these guys as an example.

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 06:00 PM
The Cubs blew it, so Dusty takes the heat. If AGonz fields that ball and the Cubs go on to win, Prior and Wood still would have gotten hurt the next year, but instead of bashing Dusty everyone would have talked about how they gave it their all and finally brought a WS championship to Chicago.

Whoa. Slow down. Even if they win vs the Marlins, I don't think they would have beaten the yankees.

Curt Schilling put his career at risk pitching with a stapled together ankle tendon, I don't recall anyone calling out Francona for letting him do that. Josh Beckett was worked nearly as hard at the end of 2003 and in the playoffs, (he threw 4 innings of relief two days after a 115 pitch outing) but no one said Jack McKeon was abusing him. Why? Because they won.

I think it is a couple of things, one, as you mentioned, Dusty risked their health and didn't win, so the cost benefit isn't there. If you gamble and win, people aren't gonna come down on you. If you gamble and lose....

Another is, Schilling and Beckett haven't broken down to the extent Prior and Wood did. Finally, I think you pointed out that Dusty did his pitch counts multiple times, not just once, and I thought Dusty went more than the 115 you mention for Beckett.

Dusty's gambles didn't pay off, either in the games he pushed too hard, or for the future of the organization.

There are other factors as well, pushing a veteran pitcher is one thing, young arms are something else. In 2003 Beckett only threw 140 innings. Prior and Wood 211. The Cubs were up 3-1 in the series vs the Marlins, but they make an excuse about one foul ball. Pretty sad.

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 06:15 PM
Even in 2003, during the season, people recognized what was going to happen, but Dusty didn't:


Posted on Aug 16, 2003 at 12:46 PM
Kerry’s Pitch Count


Take a look at Kerry Wood’s pitch counts and effectiveness so far this season:
DATE #PIT IP H BB K ER GSc

3/31 88 5.0 2 3 5 2 57
4/6 111 7.0 7 1 8 4 54
4/12 122 8.0 3 4 13 0 85
4/17 104 7.0 5 3 3 3 50
4/23 124 7.0 5 3 11 2 67
4/29 115 6.0 7 4 8 1 56
5/4 116 6.0 7 5 7 3 48
5/10 141 7.0 4 3 8 1 70
5/15 121 7.0 3 2 13 0 82
5/21 94 5.1 7 2 3 5 35
5/26 113 7.0 1 4 10 1 77
6/1 109 6.0 6 3 11 5 48
6/7 120 7.2 3 3 11 1 77
6/13 104 6.0 7 2 8 5 44
6/18 108 9.0 3 0 9 1 86
6/24 114 7.0 8 1 8 1 64
6/29 126 8.0 4 6 7 2 67
7/4 80 3.0 6 6 1 7 14
7/9 129 9.0 3 3 12 1 86
7/19 130 9.0 2 5 8 0 86
7/24 101 5.0 7 4 9 8 26
7/30 88 6.0 3 4 9 4 55
8/6 118 7.1 5 4 10 2 66
8/11 95 7.0 7 2 9 2 62

There’s a disturbing trend here, one that was pointed out by Tim Stuart in an email he sent to Will Carroll, which Will published in his Under the Knife column on Thursday. Stuart pointed out that, “Wood’s worst outings of the year…all followed on the heels of an outing where he was extended a bit too far the game before. ”
When you look at the complete list of Wood’s starts, you can see that Wood’s four lowest game scores (May 21st, June 13th, July 4th, July 24th) all came in starts immediately after outings of 120 pitches or more.

Kerry hasn’t pitched badly every time after throwing 120+ pitches; on May 15th, he struck out 13 and walked none in the start after his longest of the season (141 pitches), and he threw back-to-back complete games in July of 129 and 130 pitches. Still, it’s a bit troubling that, more often than not, Wood follows up high pitch-count starts with sub-par outings. As the season wears on, I worry that the cumulative number of pitches Wood has thrown will catch up to him. In today’s start, he looked awful, as the Dodgers chased him after he gave up five runs on five hits and four walks, struck out only two, and threw 72 pitches in only 2 2/3 innings.

http://www.all-baseball.com/cubreporter/archives/003196.html

Flying Squirrel
10-02-2006, 06:54 PM
Even in 2003, during the season, people recognized what was going to happen, but Dusty didn't:


Posted on Aug 16, 2003 at 12:46 PM
As the season wears on, I worry that the cumulative number of pitches Wood has thrown will catch up to him. In todayís start, he looked awful, as the Dodgers chased him after he gave up five runs on five hits and four walks, struck out only two, and threw 72 pitches in only 2 2/3 innings.

http://www.all-baseball.com/cubreporter/archives/003196.html

In 2003, Kerry was brilliant in September and in the first round of playoffs against the Braves. Something like an ERA of close to 1.00 over 9 starts and the Cubs won 7 of those 9 starts...including a 4-0 loss where he gave up 4 unearned runs. He did look like he ran out of gas by game 7 against the Marlins, but there was plenty in the tank in September - even with Dusty skipping Shawn Estes turn in the rotation each time so that Wood, Prior, Zambrano, and Clement pitched all of Sept on 4 days rest.

Kerry's September/Postseason in 2003
DATE OPP RESULT IP H R ER HR BB SO PIT DEC ERA*
8/27/2006 @STL L 4-2 7 4 0 0 0 4 11 125 - 0.00
9/2/2006 STL L 2-0 7 4 2 1 1 2 9 120 L 0.64
9/7/2006 @MIL W 10-2 7 8 2 2 1 2 6 122 W 1.29
9/12/2006 CIN W 7-6 6 5 1 1 0 4 9 114 - 1.33
9/17/2006 NYM W 2-0 9 4 0 0 0 1 11 125 W 1.00
9/23/2006 @CIN W 6-0 7 1 0 0 0 4 12 122 W 0.84
9/30/2006 @ATL W 4-2 7.1 2 2 2 1 5 11 124 W 1.07
10/5/2006 @ATL W 5-1 8 5 1 1 0 2 7 117 W 1.08
10/10/2006 @FLA W 5-4 7.2 7 3 3 0 3 7 109 - 1.36
10/15/2006 FLA L 9-6 6.2 7 7 7 1 4 6 112 L 2.11
10 Games 72.2 47 18 17 4 31 89 1190 5-2 2.11

Mikenator
10-02-2006, 07:14 PM
I guess you are right. Dusty was great. He just had that curse to deal with and there's no way to exorcise a goat curse.

After winning the NL Central in Baker's first season, the Cubs finished third in 2004, fourth in 2005 and sixth this season with the National League's worst record (66-96). That goat thing clearly got to Baker the longer he was in Chicago.

Still, in the Cubs' managerial history, only six of their 54 other managers won more games than Baker (322 wins) since the team's inception in 1876.

Nice job Dusty. Best to get out of town before you start to look like...

erosewater
10-02-2006, 07:40 PM
I think it is a couple of things, one, as you mentioned, Dusty risked their health and didn't win, so the cost benefit isn't there. If you gamble and win, people aren't gonna come down on you. If you gamble and lose....


That's exactly what I said, that people only react to the result, not the means. It's inconsistent to criticize Dusty for these things and give everyone else a pass, simply because Alex Gonzalez booted a ground ball.


Another is, Schilling and Beckett haven't broken down to the extent Prior and Wood did. Finally, I think you pointed out that Dusty did his pitch counts multiple times, not just once, and I thought Dusty went more than the 115 you mention for Beckett.

The 115 for Beckett on it's own was not the problem, it was bringing him in to pitch 4 more innings two days later. He gambled and it worked. Had they not won, McKeon would have taken plenty of heat the next year if Beckett came up lame.


There are other factors as well, pushing a veteran pitcher is one thing, young arms are something else. In 2003 Beckett only threw 140 innings. Prior and Wood 211.

He only pitched 140 because he had injury problems. All the more reason not to have him pitch multiple innings in relief on short rest.

I'm not saying McKeon should not have done that, or Francona in 2004 with Schilling, I'm just trying to point out that it's silly to blame Dusty and not the other managers who do the same things, based merely on whether or not the gamble pays off. We can quibble over the minor details of each situation, but the bottom line is sometimes to win you have to take risks, and if we're going to criticize the managers who don't hit that inside straight on the river, we have to treat that lucky ba*tard who does just the same.


The Cubs were up 3-1 in the series vs the Marlins, but they make an excuse about one foul ball. Pretty sad.

There is not a single fan or player who blames that series on the Bartman play. Who has made this "excuse"? The Cubs ran into a team that got hot when it mattered, as did the Yankees. Josh Beckett hasn't exactly set the world on fire since then, but for two weeks in October 2003 he was the man.

Dr T Non-Fan
10-02-2006, 07:49 PM
Still, in the Cubs' managerial history, only six of their 54 other managers won more games than Baker (322 wins) since the team's inception in 1876.

Wow!
How about the losses? The winning percentage? Your audience of statgeeks?

erosewater
10-02-2006, 07:55 PM
Even in 2003, during the season, people recognized what was going to happen, but Dusty didn't:


What was going to happen? I guess that would explain why he was lights out for the last couple months of the season and the playoffs?

The same people said the same things about Carlos Zambrano, and he's been injury free and pitching great ever since. Wood has always been an injury risk. He has terrible mechanics and he's too stubborn to try and change that. Anyone who would claim that Dusty's use of Wood in 2003 is the reason for his current injury woes clearly has not followed him over the course of his career.

That's the beauty of making that type of prediction. If the guy doesn't get hurt you can just forget about it, and when he does you say "I told you so". I read The Cub Reporter quite frequently, and they often write some pretty good stuff, but his so-called analysis below about the starts after a 120 pitch outing is just ridiculous.

MyKenk
10-02-2006, 08:19 PM
All of this is a moot point, because as we all know... the cubs suck.

Mikenator
10-03-2006, 03:11 PM
Still, in the Cubs' managerial history, only six of their 54 other managers won more games than Baker (322 wins) since the team's inception in 1876.

Wow!
How about the losses? The winning percentage? Your audience of statgeeks?

We are talking about the cubs, right? You think 5 other Cubs managers have better winning percentages than Dusty?

Mikenator
10-03-2006, 03:16 PM
The same people said the same things about Carlos Zambrano, and he's been injury free and pitching great ever since. Wood has always been an injury risk. He has terrible mechanics and he's too stubborn to try and change that. Anyone who would claim that Dusty's use of Wood in 2003 is the reason for his current injury woes clearly has not followed him over the course of his career.


Zambrano was born in Venezuela, he's probably 35 years old. Older pitchers can throw more pitches without getting hurt.

If Wood always was an injury risk, if he always had poor mechanics, isn't that even more reason to treat him with kid gloves instead of abusing him?

And maybe Beckett not being as good anymore could relate to overuse in 2003. That doesn't mean Dusty shouldn't get blame for his use of Prior and Wood, just because someone else may have abused Beckett in 2003.

erosewater
10-03-2006, 04:44 PM
Zambrano was born in Venezuela, he's probably 35 years old. Older pitchers can throw more pitches without getting hurt.



Insert eye rolly thing


If Wood always was an injury risk, if he always had poor mechanics, isn't that even more reason to treat him with kid gloves instead of abusing him?

And maybe Beckett not being as good anymore could relate to overuse in 2003. That doesn't mean Dusty shouldn't get blame for his use of Prior and Wood, just because someone else may have abused Beckett in 2003.

What I've been saying is that it's inconsistent to single out Dusty, based merely on the fact that the Cubs lost the NLCS.

If the team wins, the player gets credit for being a warrior. If they lose the manager gets blamed for overworking them. That makes no sense at all.

td25er
10-03-2006, 05:01 PM
Insert eye rolly thing


If Wood always was an injury risk, if he always had poor mechanics, isn't that even more reason to treat him with kid gloves instead of abusing him?

And maybe Beckett not being as good anymore could relate to overuse in 2003. That doesn't mean Dusty shouldn't get blame for his use of Prior and Wood, just because someone else may have abused Beckett in 2003.

What I've been saying is that it's inconsistent to single out Dusty, based merely on the fact that the Cubs lost the NLCS.

If the team wins, the player gets credit for being a warrior. If they lose the manager gets blamed for overworking them. That makes no sense at all.

regardless of how baker handles his young pitching staff, he's an idiot...he puts his foot in his mouth in interviews, and batted neifi perez 2-hole Lord knows how many times, and coddles his players too d*mn much....they need jim leyland or frank robinson

erosewater
10-03-2006, 05:22 PM
regardless of how baker handles his young pitching staff, he's an idiot...he puts his foot in his mouth in interviews, and batted neifi perez 2-hole Lord knows how many times, and coddles his players too d*mn much....they need jim leyland or frank robinson

I don't like dusty as a manager one bit, and I'm glad he's gone.

Mikenator
10-03-2006, 05:59 PM
I don't like dusty as a manager one bit, and I'm glad he's gone.

I'm going to miss Dusty. :cry:

Houdini
04-23-2007, 09:36 PM
Just saw these classic Dusty Baker quotes and had to give a good ol' :bump:


On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me.

No. 1, I've let most guys hit 3-0 (in the count). That's one reason I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can't run, most of the time he's clogging up the bases for somebody who can run.

Who have been the champions the last seven, eight years? Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks? Walks help. They do help. But you arenít going to walk across the plate, you're going to hit across the plate. That's the school I come from.

tommie frazier
04-24-2007, 10:03 AM
so he's narrowed the # of GMs who will hire him to less than 15.

they don't want dusty clogging up the dugout.

Kongo
10-15-2012, 10:26 PM
Bump.

How he got an extension is beyond me. He is the Andy reid of baseball.

Kid Rock
10-15-2012, 10:46 PM
I figured Francona would have waited for this job. Reds are stacked. Francona would have been perfect in Cincy or Texas. Cleveland....not so much.

FourKicks
10-15-2012, 10:56 PM
baker has a knack for being part of some pretty epic collapses: 1993 giants blow a 10 game division lead in late july to miss the playoffs; 2002 world series giants blow 5-1 lead in the 8th inning of game 6, go on to lose game 7; 2003 nlcs chicago cubs blow a 3-0 lead in the 8th inning of game 6 (bartman game), go on to lose game 7; 2012 nlds reds go up 2 games to none on giants only to lose all three games in cincinnati.

now that's a resume.

gadzookz
10-04-2013, 11:18 AM
Again.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9767640/dusty-baker-cincinnati-reds-manager-sources-say

mlschop
10-04-2013, 11:28 AM
I find this firing bizarre. I think they should have looked at the Reds' success before and after his arrival...

Pseudolus
10-04-2013, 11:35 AM
:42 bunt salute:

yankeetripper
10-04-2013, 01:07 PM
I find this firing bizarre. I think they should have looked at the Reds' success before and after his arrival...

That may have more to do with the talent the GM assembled than Dusty's mismanagement of it.

yankeetripper
10-04-2013, 01:08 PM
:42 bunt salute:

:lowobpfastdudebattingleadofftokeepfromcloggintheb ases:

erosewater
10-04-2013, 01:17 PM
:freethebasecloggers: