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-   -   How do you overcall 3 level bids with good hands? (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=238927)

kmbrunskill 04-22-2012 07:40 PM

How do you overcall 3 level bids with good hands?
 
LHO opens 3D. Partner says 3NT. SAYC.

I'm sitting on 9 points (A K and Q of different suits) and balanced hand and thinking "wow time to slam bid. He's going 3NT? Must have like 20+ points"

Long story short, we end up in 6NT. Partner only has 16 points. We are 2 down.

Thoughts?

Another random hand we had miscommunication.

P opens 1H. RHO does Unusual 2NT overtop. I pass. LHO says 3C. Partner says 3H. I have 3 hearts and 6 points.. I raise to 4H thinking we should be fine if my partner is willing to go to 3H. He has 5 crappy hearts and 11 points. 3 down. I guess he was trying to sacrifice bid?

Thoughts on that hand?

Klaymen 04-22-2012 08:33 PM

It's mostly a crapshoot at that level. If the auction has gone two passes and a preeempt and you're staring at 16hcp, you assume each player has about 1/3 of the remaining points and just go for it - assuming you have the enemy suit stopped adequately. Could be as little as 16 or as much as who knows. I had a 22 not long ago and that was all I could do.

Also, if partner really has "20+ points", you should assume he has only 20 and then ask yourself why you belong in slam on 29hcp without any knowledge of fit & distribution or a source of tricks.

On the second hand, partner had no business taking a second call. There are methods for giving you a variety of options to describe your hand after an unusual 2NT (a.k.a. "Unusual vs Unusual or UvU") But any such system is going to struggle to assist you with 3 trump and 6hcp. If you are red chances are you should pass and wait for partners to show extras. Chances are you should do the same nonvulnerable but there I would certainly bid on with
:sp: Axxxxx :ht: Qxx :dm: x :cl: xxx

Steve White 04-22-2012 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falco (Post 5961863)
It's mostly a crapshoot at that level. If the auction has gone two passes and a preeempt and you're staring at 16hcp, you assume each player has about 1/3 of the remaining points and just go for it - assuming you have the enemy suit stopped adequately. Could be as little as 16 or as much as who knows. I had a 22 not long ago and that was all I could do.

Also, if partner really has "20+ points", you should assume he has only 20 and then ask yourself why you belong in slam on 29hcp without any knowledge of fit & distribution or a source of tricks.

:iatp: A good rule of thumb for acting directly over preempts is that your partner figures to have something, so bid as if he has about 7-8 points. That would make an immediate 3NT overcall on about 16 slightly pushy but not crazy. You, on the other hand, with 9 have only 1-2 points extra. You should not consider bidding over 3NT. (Especially, since as falco points out, even if he has 20 you are well short of the roughly 33 normally needed for 6NT).

Quote:

On the second hand, partner had no business taking a second call. There are methods for giving you a variety of options to describe your hand after an unusual 2NT (a.k.a. "Unusual vs Unusual or UvU") But any such system is going to struggle to assist you with 3 trump and 6hcp. If you are red chances are you should pass and wait for partners to show extras. Chances are you should do the same nonvulnerable but there I would certainly bid on with
:sp: Axxxxx :ht: Qxx :dm: x :cl: xxx
falco was far too mild with "had no business taking a second call". "Terrible" or "awful" would not do justice to 3H. That said, with an average 6 points and 3-card support you should pass. falco's hand is far better than an average 6 points, and would clearly justify 4H. I would have been sorely tempted to bid 3H right away with it.

Len Myers 04-22-2012 09:06 PM

Feel free to give us actual hands.

kmbrunskill 04-26-2012 10:18 AM

This information is good to know.. I guess it does make since.

The auction did not have 2 passes though. Presumably the same reasoning applies. First chance for anyone to bid and he opens 3D.

As for the second paragraph Falco, I'm not sure. I was very thrown off by the 3D and 3NT bidding and didn't think rationally.

I will post the hands tonight, if I remember and can find them.

Thanks!

kmbrunskill 04-26-2012 03:47 PM

Another (should be easy for you guys) question. This is something very simple I've wondered for a while.

You are in 4th seat, hand get passed to you.

you hold

A
AQJ10x
KJx
xxx

Naturally you open 1H meaning 13-21 points 5+ hearts. Partner responds 2H meaning 6-10 points 3+ hearts. What do you do? Do you say 3H? Do you pass? Do you say 4H? I know under SAYC I'm supposed to say 3H with 16-18 points, but I wonder if that actually is a good idea or not. I was either going to pass or say 4H.

I said 4H because I really liked the singleton ace of spades and I had good hearts. Even with a minimum of 21 points. Risky play, but I was feeling risky.

Sweet Tooth 04-26-2012 04:03 PM

Different Strokes for 3NT
 
This has puzzled me for quite some time. Please tell me if I'm crazy or what.
Let's say RHO opens 3D, and to put the stressors on, let's say everyone red.

You have enough to bid 3NT, say KQxx Ax Axx AJxx and also enough to double to look for the spade fit. Some experts contend that you can have it both ways, i.e. double, and if partner bids 3H now bid 3S saying 'wrong major partner.' However, here's the rub. If you bid 3NT, partner will pass with msot hands anywhere between worthless and quite constructive, and on balance you will probably make 3NT about 60% of time, since partner's average in the 0-12 range will probably be around 8HCP, and you will 'know' where the cards are. [Stay with me on this.]

However, if you double, and hear a 3H bid, you know that partner has only 0-8 max, maybe 9 and the reduced average (say 5-6) will now make 3NT a very subpar game.

Hence the double followed by 3NT over ostensibly weak bid should show more than minimum 3NT overcall. With 4 spades plus a third heart and a minimum 3NT overcall, e.g. KQxx xxx Axx AKx, perhaps its best to double and pass the 3H response. (perhaps its best to double and pass 3H with the sample hand with Ax hearts---I do not know the answers to these questions).


How this should affect the decision or the rest of the bidding I'm not exactly sure.

Is this crazy thinking or what?

Klaymen 04-27-2012 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmbrunskill (Post 5970548)
you hold

A
AQJ10x
KJx
xxx

First of all, I would look for my 13th card. After an auction 1H 2H you are definitely worth a raise, but there are more effective bids than 3H. 3H just asks for some extra values in general, but here you would rather find partner with values outside of spades. The king of spades would rid you of one loser, but there's still a lot of minor losers.

Some people play HSGT = help suit game tries. A 3:cl: bid tells partner that you are weak in that suit and need values from partner there to have any hope of making game. Of course, other distribution and high card strength could still factor into play. After 3:cl:

parther should pass with :sp: Qxxxx :ht: Kxx :dm: xxx :cl: Qxx

the shape is bad, the unsupported queens aren't super, and the club suit is worrisome

on the other hand give partner :sp: xxx :ht: xxx :dm: Qxx :cl: KQTxx
or :sp: xxxxx :ht: Kxxx :dm: Axx :cl: x

And 4:ht: looks much more hopeful. I find it good to have either values or shortness in partner's suit to go on. xxx is the worst possible situation; it is absolutely no help at all.

Not everyone plays HSGT, sometimes your only recourse is natural bidding. If that were the case I might bid 3:dm: showing partner where I live.

Finally I would say this hand is about as marginal as another call gets and I"m not thrilled to have 7hcp buried in the trump suit. (If you have AKxxx opposite QJxxx that's 10hcp but much of it is wasted. You could make the same number of tricks holding AKxxx opposite xxxxx)

Klaymen 04-27-2012 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Tooth (Post 5970623)
if partner bids 3H now bid 3S saying 'wrong major partner.'

I'm going to have a hard time not expecting at least 5-6 spades on this auction, and might raise with three small or even two good ones. Add that to the four you're holding and maybe you'll WISH you were in 3NT.

Len Myers 04-27-2012 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Tooth (Post 5970623)
This has puzzled me for quite some time. Please tell me if I'm crazy or what.
Let's say RHO opens 3D, and to put the stressors on, let's say everyone red.

You have enough to bid 3NT, say KQxx Ax Axx AJxx and also enough to double to look for the spade fit. Some experts contend that you can have it both ways, i.e. double, and if partner bids 3H now bid 3S saying 'wrong major partner.' However, here's the rub. If you bid 3NT, partner will pass with msot hands anywhere between worthless and quite constructive, and on balance you will probably make 3NT about 60% of time, since partner's average in the 0-12 range will probably be around 8HCP, and you will 'know' where the cards are. [Stay with me on this.]

However, if you double, and hear a 3H bid, you know that partner has only 0-8 max, maybe 9 and the reduced average (say 5-6) will now make 3NT a very subpar game.

:yikes: You're right. I haven't thought of it that way before.


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