Orange you glad it ws just a coule of bad apples

[2pac Shakur]

The torture at Abu Ghraib was either:

A. A couple of bad apples.
B. Systematic, from the top.


Which do you think it is?

[Tim><]

Orange you glad you allowed people to select more than one option.

[IAm@Work.com]

I picked '42' as the most likely true answer is not an option. "Systematic from the top" for the US means Bush, and/or the Joint Cheifs said, "Go forth and torture". Much more likely is "systematic from somewhere in the middle" where those at the top said "get information", those at the bottom said "gosh this is slow" and they met somewhere in the middle and we got what we got.

A much more interesting poll would be to ask, "Yes/No, sleep depravation is torture" or "Yes/No, Constantly playing Matalica and the Barney theme song is torture". (This comes from the NPR interview of the lead singer in Matalica, where they quoted an article claiming that both of these had been tried.)

I guarantee you that you can find a link claiming the sleep depravation is torture. I guarantee you that if all that had been done were sleep depravation, few in the US would be bothered.

But, "Oh", thinks 2pac, "I will now claim that IAm thinks the only thing that happened was sleep depravation and a couple of loud CDs. I'll post one of my patented three line questions about 'Is that all you think happened'" Well, 2pac, save your breath (or typing as it were). I know more happened. Not particularly happy about it either. My point is that if we completely stopped all torture everywhere in the world by every authority or rebel group, there would still be late night questions and loud music, and thus there would still be a voice in the world shouting, "When will the torture stop?"

[fallout]

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

I picked '42' as the most likely true answer is not an option. "Systematic from the top" for the US means Bush, and/or the Joint Cheifs said, "Go forth and torture". Much more likely is "systematic from somewhere in the middle" where those at the top said "get information", those at the bottom said "gosh this is slow" and they met somewhere in the middle and we got what we got.

A much more interesting poll would be to ask, "Yes/No, sleep depravation is torture" or "Yes/No, Constantly playing Matalica and the Barney theme song is torture". (This comes from the NPR interview of the lead singer in Matalica, where they quoted an article claiming that both of these had been tried.)

I guarantee you that you can find a link claiming the sleep depravation is torture. I guarantee you that if all that had been done were sleep depravation, few in the US would be bothered.

But, "Oh", thinks 2pac, "I will now claim that IAm thinks the only thing that happened was sleep depravation and a couple of loud CDs. I'll post one of my patented three line questions about 'Is that all you think happened'" Well, 2pac, save your breath (or typing as it were). I know more happened. Not particularly happy about it either. My point is that if we completely stopped all torture everywhere in the world by every authority or rebel group, there would still be late night questions and loud music, and thus there would still be a voice in the world shouting, "When will the torture stop?"

I disagree with your assesment. The abuse pictures thatwere published were not an organized effort to gather information, rather, they were clearly a bunch of soldiers that got to cuaght up in the moment and went nuts on some prisoners. Nothing about this abuse served the US interests.

i.e. no info gets gathered by stacking up naked terrorists or putting panties on someone's head.

[Happy Skunk]

Exactly fallout.

Bush and Rummy have certainly had a good laugh over a scotch in the Oval office. The thought of them getting heat for this "torture" which was a bunch of underdeveloped adolescents playing fraternity games.

Bush to Rummy: "You think I would waste my time personally authorizing this crap?"

Rummy: "Yeah, If you wanted to see some torture, I could show you some torture. When I authorize torture, people go insane. And pictures - fuggetaboutit."

Bush: "Ha. Remember that session we had the CIA undertake for that Chinese spy?"

Rummy: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

[Bicycle Repair Man]

I still have yet to see any evidence that any Iraqi prisoners were tortured.

Originally Posted by Happy Skunk

Bush and Rummy have certainly had a good laugh over a scotch in the Oval office.

That would be that non-alcoholic scotch for Bush, I assume.

[2pac Shakur]

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

I picked '42' as the most likely true answer is not an option. "Systematic from the top" for the US means Bush, and/or the Joint Cheifs said, "Go forth and torture". Much more likely is "systematic from somewhere in the middle" where those at the top said "get information", those at the bottom said "gosh this is slow" and they met somewhere in the middle and we got what we got.

Except for the fact that Bush had Gonzales determine whether or not certain acts constitute torture.
The fact that some of those actions then occurred - must be a coinkydink.

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

A much more interesting poll would be to ask, "Yes/No, sleep depravation is torture" or "Yes/No, Constantly playing Matalica and the Barney theme song is torture". (This comes from the NPR interview of the lead singer in Matalica, where they quoted an article claiming that both of these had been tried.)

Or dogs biting you.
Or sodomized with chemical lights. Waterboarding. Threatened rape. Killing prisoners.
The stuff NOT in pictures being shown.

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

I guarantee you that you can find a link claiming the sleep depravation is torture. I guarantee you that if all that had been done were sleep depravation, few in the US would be bothered.

Right.
We went in because of WMDs, I mean because Saddam is a torturer.
But we torture - only not as bad.
At least, according to flagwaver@work.

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

But, "Oh", thinks 2pac, "I will now claim that IAm thinks the only thing that happened was sleep depravation and a couple of loud CDs. I'll post one of my patented three line questions about 'Is that all you think happened'" Well, 2pac, save your breath (or typing as it were). I know more happened. Not particularly happy about it either. My point is that if we completely stopped all torture everywhere in the world by every authority or rebel group, there would still be late night questions and loud music, and thus there would still be a voice in the world shouting, "When will the torture stop?"

Um, isn't the reason Saddam is on trial is because of torturing people?
Or are you still buying into the WMDs story?

[2pac Shakur]

God Bless America:

Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok. Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib which is 30 miles from Baghdad [...]

The women were passing messages saying "Please come and kill me, because of what's happened". Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.

It's impossible to say to yourself how do we get there? who are we? Who are these people that sent us there?

http://slapnose.com/archives/2004/07...than_we_think/

See, but Bush had no idea.
Saddam didn't bother checking with his AG.
:GBA:

[2pac Shakur]

Words mean nothing -- nothing to George Bush. They are just utterances. They have no meaning. Bush can say again and again, “well, we don't do torture.” We know what happened. We know about Abu Ghraib. We know, we see anecdotally. We all understand in some profound way because so much has come out in the last few weeks, the I.C.R.C. The ACLU put out more papers, this is not an isolated incident what’s happened with the seven kids and the horrible photographs, Lynndie England. That's into the not the issue is. They're fall guys. Of course, they did wrong. But you know, when we send kids to fight, one of the things that we do when we send our children to war is the officers become in loco parentis. That means their job in the military is to protect these kids, not only from getting bullets and being blown up, but also there is nothing as stupid as a 20 or 22-year-old kid with a weapon in a war zone. Protect them from themselves. The spectacle of these people doing those antics night after night, for three and a half months only stopped when one of their own soldiers turned them in tells you all you need to know, how many officers knew. I can just give you a timeline that will tell you all you need to know. Abu Ghraib was reported in January of 2004 this year. In May, I and CBS earlier also wrote an awful lot about what was going on there. At that point, between January and May, our government did nothing. Although Rumsfeld later acknowledged that he was briefed by the middle of January on it and told the President. In those three-and-a-half months before it became public, was there any systematic effort to do anything other than to prosecute seven “bad seeds”, enlisted kids, reservists from West Virginia and the unit they were in, by the way, Military Police. The answer is, Ha! They were basically a bunch of kids who were taught on traffic control, sent to Iraq, put in charge of a prison. They knew nothing. It doesn't excuse them from doing dumb things. But there is another framework. We're not seeing it. They’ve gotten away with it.

http://www.democracynow.org/article..../01/26/1450204