PAK

[MyKenk]

I don't think I ever read anywhere that he was encouraging people to break any rules, or to program things into calculators... maybe I misread, but I think that saying something is unenforceable is not the same as saying "you should do this"

[bdschobel]

That's right. What I did say is that the SOA is not going to embark on a search-and-destroy mission to look for PAK creators -- and certainly not to the extent of asking the Actuarial Outpost to provide IP addresses. That's just not going to happen. We really do have better things to do.

Bruce

[SharksFan08]

Originally Posted by SharksFan08

Either way, continue to work internally at changing bad rules. But be careful about effectively encouraging students to break them.

Obviously Bruce never explicitly said "hey, let's get all you students together to flaunt this rule that the SoA can't control." I know that that wasn't even close to the spirit of his post. I just think that his post was careless, and sets a bad precedent. I'd assume that most of us can read between the lines, so when the initial post in a thread asks about PAKs in the context of SoA rule-breaking, and an SoA official posts a reply saying "we have better things to do than worry about that," it is effectively encouraging the rule to be broken.

Bruce, suppose a student is considering programming their answers and participating in a PAK. They might be nervous though, to break an SoA rule. Do you really think that reading your response would have any effect other than that of encouraging them to participate, thereby breaking the rule?

Call me crazy, but I just think that might be dangerous when authority figures suggest that people can be selective about which rules are important, and which ones they can ignore. Rules aren't meant to be discretionary. So while I'm all for Bruce working internally to improve the system (and I appreciate, I really do, all of the progress that he's made) I maintain my opinion that his response was not appropriate.

In both my initial post and this one, I expressed my observation constructively. Last I checked, Lane Meyers, that was within the bounds of good taste on this forum. If one student's dissenting opinion discourages Bruce from posting on this board in the future, then I sincerely do apologize; that would be a big loss. But something tells me Bruce can handle it. Bruce, if you think my criticism was too harsh or tasteless, then I am sorry, it wasn't meant to be.

[2M]

I have only read part of this thread and am not really sure what the big issue is.

The SOA has a rule against taking answers from the exam room. It appears to be enforced rather loosely but, still it is a rule.

This site has specific rules against publicly displaying PAKs but, it appears quite obvious that PAKs are created.

If it is obvious to me, it is obvious to others too.

If they wanted to stop the creation of PAKs, they would have done so a while ago. So, apparently it is not something that the powers that be are worried about.

[bdschobel]

Originally Posted by SharksFan08

...If one student's dissenting opinion discourages Bruce from posting on this board in the future, then I sincerely do apologize; that would be a big loss. But something tells me Bruce can handle it. Bruce, if you think my criticism was too harsh or tasteless, then I am sorry, it wasn't meant to be.

I have a skin like a rhinoceros. If I can tolerate truly offensive hostility of the sort I get from that Colymbo... guy and smarty pants (what was his mother thinking?), I can certainly take constructive criticism of this sort.

Seriously, I never told people to go break rules. The question arose as to whether the SOA would request IP addresses from this forum. I said that it's not going to happen. End of story. Still true. Sort of like, "If you limit your speed to only 5 mph over the limit, you can be pretty darn sure the police will ignore you." Same thing. That's not encouraging people to speed, just stating a fact.

The issue of whether or not certain rules are silly, enforceable, etc., etc., is separate.

Bruce

[twig93]

Originally Posted by SharksFan08

Rules aren't meant to be discretionary.

Yes, but as intelligent human beings, I would argue that it's not only our right, but also our duty to question rules. I mean obviously this is on nowhere near the same scale, but keep in mind that everything that Hitler did was technically legal whereas much of what Martin Luther King Jr. did was technically illegal.

In the case of the "don't take your answers out of the room" rule, the moral issues are nowhere near that of the holocaust or the civil rights movement, obviously, but they are there. Is it right that the SoA withholds this valuable information? Is it right that the people who obey the letter of the rule must wait 6-7 weeks for results when the rest of us get a pretty good idea of our score right away? I'm sure there are others.

[SharksFan08]

Originally Posted by twig93

Is it right that the people who obey the letter of the rule must wait 6-7 weeks for results when the rest of us get a pretty good idea of our score right away?

I agree with you. But "encouraging" (I still choose to use this word) the relatively small subset of candidates that use this message board to break the rule hardly seems to solve the inequity.

And there's a big difference between breaking rules on moral grounds (civil rights, hiding Anne Frank in your attic, etc.) and breaking rules because they inconvenience you and you think they're stupid rules. I doubt students are programming answers into calculators as part of their crusade for justice.

[kirghizstan]

SF I understand your point, you have made it about 5 times already. While I enjoy reading the stuff on here, this conversation seems to be becoming a little long winded. I think the whole thread should be locked so its there for people to read, but no more discussion.

Lets summarize:

SF doesn't think PAKs are right and feels that Bruce is encouraging people to do them by saying the SOA isn't going to go all KGB to find everyone who might 'remember' their answers.

Bruce feels he is just saying the SOA has better things to do then go KGB on test takers. Their time is better spent trying to get the results out asap.

I feel that people who are impatient enough and skilled enough to 'remember' their answers aren't really doing any harm. Think about it, the test is graded on a scale so it isn't in people’s best interests to tell others what the answers are before they take the test. No matter how thick and inventive the Berlin Wall became people still got to the other side and the same holds here, if people are determined to use this as a cheating method, they will find another way around the rules. Most people aren't using this to cheat they just want to have some feeling of how they did while they wait 8 weeks to see if they will either be able to add this to the resume or get a raise. Just let the people do what they want, if you don't like the idea then don't do it yourself. This isn't Mississippi Burning so looking the other way will do you no harm.

[SharksFan08]

I'm not against PAKs and don't think they're wrong, for the record. Evidently I could stand to make my actual point a 6th time. I'll spare you though.

[Queen02]

[quote=kirghizstan]

I feel that people who are impatient enough and skilled enough to 'remember' their answers aren't really doing any harm. Most people aren't using this to cheat they just want to have some feeling of how they did while they wait 8 weeks to see if they will either be able to add this to the resume or get a raise. QUOTE]

I don't think this is purely about impatience. I've looked at PAK's before for the old Course 2 out of my need for more transparency since the SOA is often like some secret society.

Since the SOA should only be concerned that I know the full syllabus for Course 2, it would be of benefit to me to know if perhaps I got every Economics & Finance Q right but failed ALL of the Interest Theory then I know I am a Econ & Finance genius but completely retarded at Int.Th. It then doesn't waste my time studying material I already know.

If the SOA cannot return graded papers for us to see exactly the topics we do not understand then knowing which questions we got right is our only means of self-assessment.

I for sure vote for more transparency. For my $800 for the 1st FAP exam there had better be some decent volume of practice papers with illustrative exam questions cause I do not want to fail due to exam questions being off the wall different from the textbooks or online readings.