Orange you glad it ws just a coule of bad apples

[2pac Shakur]

The torture at Abu Ghraib was either:

A. A couple of bad apples.
B. Systematic, from the top.


Which do you think it is?

[Tim><]

Orange you glad you allowed people to select more than one option.

[IAm@Work.com]

I picked '42' as the most likely true answer is not an option. "Systematic from the top" for the US means Bush, and/or the Joint Cheifs said, "Go forth and torture". Much more likely is "systematic from somewhere in the middle" where those at the top said "get information", those at the bottom said "gosh this is slow" and they met somewhere in the middle and we got what we got.

A much more interesting poll would be to ask, "Yes/No, sleep depravation is torture" or "Yes/No, Constantly playing Matalica and the Barney theme song is torture". (This comes from the NPR interview of the lead singer in Matalica, where they quoted an article claiming that both of these had been tried.)

I guarantee you that you can find a link claiming the sleep depravation is torture. I guarantee you that if all that had been done were sleep depravation, few in the US would be bothered.

But, "Oh", thinks 2pac, "I will now claim that IAm thinks the only thing that happened was sleep depravation and a couple of loud CDs. I'll post one of my patented three line questions about 'Is that all you think happened'" Well, 2pac, save your breath (or typing as it were). I know more happened. Not particularly happy about it either. My point is that if we completely stopped all torture everywhere in the world by every authority or rebel group, there would still be late night questions and loud music, and thus there would still be a voice in the world shouting, "When will the torture stop?"

[fallout]

Originally Posted by IAm@Work.com

I picked '42' as the most likely true answer is not an option. "Systematic from the top" for the US means Bush, and/or the Joint Cheifs said, "Go forth and torture". Much more likely is "systematic from somewhere in the middle" where those at the top said "get information", those at the bottom said "gosh this is slow" and they met somewhere in the middle and we got what we got.

A much more interesting poll would be to ask, "Yes/No, sleep depravation is torture" or "Yes/No, Constantly playing Matalica and the Barney theme song is torture". (This comes from the NPR interview of the lead singer in Matalica, where they quoted an article claiming that both of these had been tried.)

I guarantee you that you can find a link claiming the sleep depravation is torture. I guarantee you that if all that had been done were sleep depravation, few in the US would be bothered.

But, "Oh", thinks 2pac, "I will now claim that IAm thinks the only thing that happened was sleep depravation and a couple of loud CDs. I'll post one of my patented three line questions about 'Is that all you think happened'" Well, 2pac, save your breath (or typing as it were). I know more happened. Not particularly happy about it either. My point is that if we completely stopped all torture everywhere in the world by every authority or rebel group, there would still be late night questions and loud music, and thus there would still be a voice in the world shouting, "When will the torture stop?"

I disagree with your assesment. The abuse pictures thatwere published were not an organized effort to gather information, rather, they were clearly a bunch of soldiers that got to cuaght up in the moment and went nuts on some prisoners. Nothing about this abuse served the US interests.

i.e. no info gets gathered by stacking up naked terrorists or putting panties on someone's head.

[Happy Skunk]

Exactly fallout.

Bush and Rummy have certainly had a good laugh over a scotch in the Oval office. The thought of them getting heat for this "torture" which was a bunch of underdeveloped adolescents playing fraternity games.

Bush to Rummy: "You think I would waste my time personally authorizing this crap?"

Rummy: "Yeah, If you wanted to see some torture, I could show you some torture. When I authorize torture, people go insane. And pictures - fuggetaboutit."

Bush: "Ha. Remember that session we had the CIA undertake for that Chinese spy?"

Rummy: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

[Bicycle Repair Man]

I still have yet to see any evidence that any Iraqi prisoners were tortured.

Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman

I still have yet to see any evidence that any Iraqi prisoners were tortured.

I don't understand this. Graner was found guilty...the evidence was enough to convince a court martial. What more are you looking for?

Originally Posted by Happy Skunk

Bush and Rummy have certainly had a good laugh over a scotch in the Oval office.

That would be that non-alcoholic scotch for Bush, I assume.

[Griffin 6]

Originally Posted by Titania

I don't understand this. Graner was found guilty...the evidence was enough to convince a court martial. What more are you looking for?

Was the court-martial for torturing prisoners or for abusing prisoners? While neither is desirable, there is a difference.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Originally Posted by Titania

I don't understand this. Graner was found guilty...the evidence was enough to convince a court martial. What more are you looking for?

1. Politically, there was absolutely no way that the verdict could have been not guilty. The fallout would have been worse that the post-Rodney King situation.

2. Even if what was done was wrong, that doesn't make it torture.