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  #431  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:00 PM
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Got my sub back in action!

So now I know when my subwoofer died. That ringing around 20Hz is back, and no amount of bass trapping is making it go away. So it's not that the bass trap was working so effectively. No, it just so happened that the moment I placed my first bass trap was exactly the same time the sub stopped working.

I'm still glad to have the sub back. It definitely rounds out the sound. And I'm also happy to have the bass traps. They're doing nothing to help with the ringing at 20Hz, but I'm not sure I care. The resonances at higher bass frequencies are definitely subdued. And I can't hear frequencies that low, anyway. I do wonder if that ringing is messing with my sound in other ways, though.

I'm trying to figure out what to save up for next. I don't think I'll get much incremental value out of additional acoustic treatments, and my wife would have to shoot me if I buy more. So maybe a second sub? I read an article by Floyd Toole showing that there is significant value in adding a second sub (especially in terms of flattening bass response across a broad area), and a lot less in going beyond 2 subs.

If I get a second sub, should I get one just like I have? Or should I try to save up for a monster like some of you guys have?
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  #432  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:51 AM
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Went to a concert over the weekend where the bass was unbelievable. Not only did you feel it in your chest, but each beat made me feel like my shirt was being blown by an incredibly precise and short breeze.

Is this level of bass even possible in a home theater setup? If so, what is necessary? Are we talking the monster subs like GF has in his home?
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  #433  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Egghead View Post
Got my sub back in action!

So now I know when my subwoofer died. That ringing around 20Hz is back, and no amount of bass trapping is making it go away. So it's not that the bass trap was working so effectively. No, it just so happened that the moment I placed my first bass trap was exactly the same time the sub stopped working.

I'm still glad to have the sub back. It definitely rounds out the sound. And I'm also happy to have the bass traps. They're doing nothing to help with the ringing at 20Hz, but I'm not sure I care. The resonances at higher bass frequencies are definitely subdued. And I can't hear frequencies that low, anyway. I do wonder if that ringing is messing with my sound in other ways, though.

I'm trying to figure out what to save up for next. I don't think I'll get much incremental value out of additional acoustic treatments, and my wife would have to shoot me if I buy more. So maybe a second sub? I read an article by Floyd Toole showing that there is significant value in adding a second sub (especially in terms of flattening bass response across a broad area), and a lot less in going beyond 2 subs.

If I get a second sub, should I get one just like I have? Or should I try to save up for a monster like some of you guys have?
I've been meaning to get back to this thread, it's been a pretty crazy couple of weeks.

Good news on your Outlaw, they've always been known as a company who takes really great care of their customers. Nobody makes a perfect product, and customer service is important. That's part of why I like Outlaw. Ditto for SVS.

Interesting news on your bass traps, I'd always kind of written them off... but I've been really re-thinking room treatments and should put these back in the hopper to read up on. I wouldn't sweat ringing at 20Hz all that much, there isn't much content, even harmonics, that low, and your ears shouldn't be terribly sensitive at extremely low freqs.

Yes, a second sub will flatten your bass response *if* you can put it somewhere to excite different room modes. That is, you don't want symmetry here. If one sub is 2' from the back wall and 3' from the right wall, don't place the second sub 2' from the back wall and 3' from the left wall. The freqs at which you'll get constructive/destructive interference will be the same, if that makes sense.

To me, that's the benefit of multiple subs. One sub can typically play as loud as most people need, but with one sub you'll never get a flat response. You'll also get cleaner bass - at any given SPL two subs will have lower excursion. Lower excursion = lower THD.

You can definitely mix and match subs. I've done it a lot and never had any major issues.
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  #434  
Old 12-18-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Egghead View Post
Went to a concert over the weekend where the bass was unbelievable. Not only did you feel it in your chest, but each beat made me feel like my shirt was being blown by an incredibly precise and short breeze.

Is this level of bass even possible in a home theater setup? If so, what is necessary? Are we talking the monster subs like GF has in his home?
Basically, no free lunch.

You could do crazy loud with a couple of small-ish subs, but you wouldn't get 20Hz. Pro subs typically play to 40Hz, or perhaps 30Hz, but that's about it. So yeah, if you want bonkers SPL and deep extension, you're talking about very large subs.

You can cheat things with gobs of power. The Sunfire subs are a great example. The most common ones have 10" woofers and are basically about a 12" cube, they are really compact. Which kills efficiency, and they overcome that by throwing 1kW at a well-built driver. Since power is cheap these days (read: Chinese-built class D), it's a workable solution. My Seaton is similar, but on a larger scale, using two active 15", 2kW, and EQ. For a not-too-big sub, it makes a LOT of racket.
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  #435  
Old 12-18-2017, 03:50 PM
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You can definitely mix and match subs. I've done it a lot and never had any major issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Frankly View Post
Basically, no free lunch.

You could do crazy loud with a couple of small-ish subs, but you wouldn't get 20Hz. Pro subs typically play to 40Hz, or perhaps 30Hz, but that's about it. So yeah, if you want bonkers SPL and deep extension, you're talking about very large subs.
Outlaw has a model up from mine that is normally over $1600, and they're selling it now for $1,099 and free shipping. It's bigger than what I've got without being a frightening monster that I could never hide. It's the only THX certified single-sub available in the US, for whatever that's worth. (Other subs get THX certification, but only when sold in pairs.) Would that be likely to give me the mind-blowing performance I'm seeking?

Last edited by Egghead; 12-18-2017 at 04:23 PM..
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  #436  
Old 12-18-2017, 07:04 PM
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Outlaw has a model up from mine that is normally over $1600, and they're selling it now for $1,099 and free shipping. It's bigger than what I've got without being a frightening monster that I could never hide. It's the only THX certified single-sub available in the US, for whatever that's worth. (Other subs get THX certification, but only when sold in pairs.) Would that be likely to give me the mind-blowing performance I'm seeking?
Hard to say, it depends on what it's gonna take to blow your mind.

I'll throw out some rough numbers, I can't find all the relevant specs I need to do it right. Let's say you add that big 13" sub. A 13" driver has about 17% more surface area than a 12". And let's say the 13" has more excursion (can't find xmax on the 12" to know). Let's say that the combination of more cone area plus more excursion means it has 50% more SPL. That's about 2dB. And you get 3dB from adding a second sub. So if you added the 13" on top of your 12" you're talking 5dB louder. You'll definitely feel that difference.

Realistically speaking, the sub you have now is a good one. The 13" would be like taking your sub to 11. The pair of them would be very, very powerful. You'll feel the bass, because the room will be shaking a lot. To get to the next level is going to be expensive, and you're going to need really big subs!

And not to discourage you from buying Outlaw, but the SVS PB12 is worth a look ($1,400 though), as is the Hsu VTF15H MK2. The Hsu is $1,068 shipped. I've heard it, and it's a monster. Output-wise, all three subs are likely to be within a couple dB throughout the passband.
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  #437  
Old 12-18-2017, 09:26 PM
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I read an interesting review of the Ultra-X13. They said that this sub does better with ringing than most subs, even fairly expensive ones. So that made me wonder: Do I have all that ringing at 20Hz because of my room? Or is it my subwoofer that is ringing, and no amount of acoustic treatment could ever do anything about it?

Regardless, the reviewer did say the Ultra-X13 is exceptionally clean and crisp, which appeals to me. And that sale price is tempting...
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  #438  
Old 12-18-2017, 10:59 PM
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Found a pic of Egghead from 2019 somehow.

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  #439  
Old 12-18-2017, 11:06 PM
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Seriously, if you have a grand youíre not doing anything with, it seems like a good buy. You wonít find anything at a hifi shop for that price thatíll come close.

Tell the wife it was BOGO, and George Frankly only wanted one, so you really didnít have much of a choice.

Oh, my friend may be selling his Mitsubishi Diatone 32Ē subs. If he does, Iím first in line. No, I donít know what the heck I will do with them. They need right at 20 cubic feet to work well. So basically they need a refrigerator for a box.
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  #440  
Old 12-19-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egghead View Post
Went to a concert over the weekend where the bass was unbelievable. Not only did you feel it in your chest, but each beat made me feel like my shirt was being blown by an incredibly precise and short breeze.

Is this level of bass even possible in a home theater setup? If so, what is necessary? Are we talking the monster subs like GF has in his home?
Cerwin-Vega!

Those and other pro-subs aren't designed for low-reaching, accurate and flat frequency response, but they'll give you the kick-in-the-chest feeling due to the "impactful" frequencies they emphasize. Maybe you could get a sub like that for when you want that feeling such as when watching movies or listening to certain types of music, and switch back to your other sub when you want accuracy.
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