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  #21  
Old 05-28-2017, 10:01 PM
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Harold Cherry's post is further proof that AO readers should trust me and only me. Pristine reputation and best eyes on the AO.

Cooke, Campbell, Harold Cherry and others may be very high on the trustworthy scale. SOA and CIA may even be somewhat trustworthy. But when trust is critical, the mole is here for you.
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  #22  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:21 PM
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Thanks for reaching out everyone. I thought this thread was going nowhere but was pleasantly surprised today.
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  #23  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:38 PM
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But just to be clear, I was also disappointed by the continued secrecy of the SOA.
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  #24  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Cherry View Post
I can shed some light on whether the non-publication of the Memorandum of Understanding was an "administrative oversight". It definitely was not.

I have been trying to get a copy of the MOU since the press release was published on May 10. The following is a transcript of my communications with Customer Service at the SOA and with Jerry Brown, president of the SOA:

May 10, 2017

Harold Cherry to SOA's Customer Service:

"I received an email today with the SOA News Weekly. It reported that the CIA and SOA have signed a Memorandum of Understanding on education.

Is the actual Memorandum available on the SOA website?"

*********

May 11

Customer Service to HC:

"Here is a link to your article". [Link to press release provided.]

********

May 11

HC to Customer Service:

"Thanks for your email. I already saw the press release. If you look at my original email, what I asked for was the actual Memorandum of Understanding, not the press release which describes it. Please advise. Thanks."

********

May 17

HC to Customer Service:

"Do you have any news for me concerning my request? Thanks."

********

May 17

Customer Service to HC:

"I did hear back from our legal department and found out that this Memorandum of Understanding will not be published or made available."

May 22

HC to Jerry Brown, President of the SOA:

"Dear President Brown,

I am an FSA, and although my actuarial career has been spent with life insurance companies for some 50 years, I have also been very involved with the education of actuaries. I taught courses for the actuarial exams, sponsored by the Actuarial Society of Greater New York, for over 30 years; I was the publisher of study manuals for the Preliminary Exams under the imprint "ASM" (Actuarial Study Materials) for over 20 years; and I am currently the author of a widely-used study manual for Exam FM.

When the SOA recently announced that it had signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the CIA, I was naturally very interested in this development. As you can see from the correspondence below [the preceding emails were forwarded], I contacted Customer Service at the SOA to ask whether I could obtain a copy of the memorandum itself, rather than just the summary shown in the press release. I was informed that the SOA's legal department advised that the Memorandum would "not be published or made available".

Needless to say, I was quite surprised by this response. It's hard to imagine what there could be in the Memorandum that is so sensitive that it could not be published.

As the president of the SOA, I am sure that you fully support the policy of transparency between the SOA's leadership and its members. Certainly, the leadership could not have intended to create the feeling among the membership that the SOA is making "secret" agreements with other organizations. Accordingly, I urge you, as someone who has been deeply involved with the education of actuaries yourself in your many years of service to the SOA, to make the Memorandum available to the membership.

Thanks very much for your time."

********

May 24

Jerry Brown to HC:

"Dear Mr. Cherry,

Thank you for your note regarding the Memorandum of Understanding between the SOA and the Canadian Institute of Actuaries (CIA). The leaders of the SOA and the CIA have agreed not to publish the MOU, but I can assure you that the primary points of agreement are what we outlined in the public announcement we posted. You might be interested in a follow-up communication that the CIA has published to address some questions it received. You can read that here: [Link provided.]

Thank you very much for your service to the SOA and the actuarial profession. Thank you again for reaching out to me.

Sincerely,

Jerry Brown

SOA President"

********

May 24

HC to JB:

"Thank you very much for your reply, and for the link to the CIA's follow-up communication.

I am still puzzled by this. On the one hand, you note that "the leaders of the SOA and the CIA have agreed not to publish the MOU" but on the other hand you give your assurance that "the primary points of agreement are what we outline in the public announcement". If that's the case, what possible reason is there not to publish the MOU? Why not publish it and remove any doubt that there has been no attempt to hide anything from the membership?

I respectfully request that the leadership of the SOA revisit this question with the leadership of the CIA, and consider the wisdom of being completely transparent with their memberships, as opposed to giving the appearance of making 'secret' agreements.

Thank you for your consideration."

********

May 25

JB to HC:

"Mr. Cherry, thanks very much for sharing your thoughts with me. I understand your perspective, but as a matter of good business practice we don't generally publish our agreements or contracts with other organizations or third parties. We value hearing from our members with questions or concerns and we seek to communicate with them about any matters of interest, but feel that's better done through means other than by publishing the text of agreements. Thanks again."

********

That's the sum total of my communications so far. I'm sorry for any typos in the above. Also, notice to grammarians: I deliberately didn't handle quotation marks properly; it was too much trouble.
Thanks Harold. My interchanges with Jerry and Dave (CIA President) provided similar conclusions.

The related material on the CIA website is more extensive than on the SOA one. As a CIA Director who has seen the MOU, I can vouch that it is an innocent document. However since I can't divulge its contents, you have to just take my word for that

Alan
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  #25  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:56 PM
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I would rather have public facts as opposed to assertion from private knowledge.
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  #26  
Old 06-06-2017, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooke View Post
Thanks Harold. My interchanges with Jerry and Dave (CIA President) provided similar conclusions.

The related material on the CIA website is more extensive than on the SOA one. As a CIA Director who has seen the MOU, I can vouch that it is an innocent document. However since I can't divulge its contents, you have to just take my word for that

Alan
If you have seen it, then you presumably can divulge its contents even if as a CIA Director you may not. I'll also vouch that it is an innocent document, and for your reputation for honesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell View Post
I would rather have public facts as opposed to assertion from private knowledge.
Since I am not a CIA or SOA Director, there are no prohibitions against my disclosing its contents. Such disclosure would not satisfy campbell's stated wishes, despite her trusting me.
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