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  #21  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:43 PM
yerromnitsuj yerromnitsuj is offline
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Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge View Post
I could, but I wouldn't. I never have time to finish a full exam, so knowing which questions to skip leave for the end without using exam time is valuable, but I would never do it at the expense of writing for another 10 minutes.

I think expecting a test bank of 30 IQ questions is over the top. I would settle for the questions not being flawed, and being able to answer them from information in the exam syllabus. Defective questions, and questions that poke at fringe materials, is a much bigger issue than IQ in general.
Yeah, I don't think the issue is no sample problems at all. The issue, as stated many times here, is timing. When 9% of test takers finish an exam something is wrong.

The IQ questions really are no more than a few normal questions strung together into "one" question and they do no more than normal questions do since they're broken into so many sub parts (when you're getting into the f's, g's, h's how much are you really integrating different papers together?) I'm not saying this is what they should do but a real IQ question would be worth ~6-9 points and would just be one big overarching problem. Right now they add no value, in my opinion.
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  #22  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:43 PM
hjacjswo hjacjswo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge View Post
I could, but I wouldn't. I never have time to finish a full exam, so knowing which questions to skip leave for the end without using exam time is valuable, but I would never do it at the expense of writing for another 10 minutes.

I think expecting a test bank of 30 IQ questions is over the top. I would settle for the questions not being flawed, and being able to answer them from information in the exam syllabus. Defective questions, and questions that poke at fringe materials, is a much bigger issue than IQ in general.
I don't understand your logic. Why couldn't you do that if they just add 15min to the exam time, instead of giving you the time and not letting you write anything? Either way, you will get your 15min, but, it will enable you to use it however you see fit.
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  #23  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:53 PM
hjacjswo hjacjswo is offline
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I personally don't mind the concept of IQs. It's not a bad idea to have questions that integrate different subjects within the exam's syllabus to show how they all connect.
But, I think the issue is that it seems like Blooms is considred synonymous with tricky.
Instead of testing the understanding of the material, it feels like the exam writers feel pressured to embed curveballs/tricks in the questions or write the questions in the least straightforward way possible. This leads to longer exam time than expected due to time to process/decipher the questions and some strange/defective questions.
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  #24  
Old 10-29-2018, 04:56 PM
CuriousGeorge CuriousGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by ShundayBloodyShunday View Post
So, it's the CAS obligation to structure the sitting to benefit you most?
I didn't say they were obligated. I said I liked it that way. Others are welcome to their own preferences.
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  #25  
Old 10-29-2018, 05:13 PM
huphelmeyer huphelmeyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hjacjswo View Post
I personally don't mind the concept of IQs. It's not a bad idea to have questions that integrate different subjects within the exam's syllabus to show how they all connect.
But, I think the issue is that it seems like Blooms is considred synonymous with tricky.
Instead of testing the understanding of the material, it feels like the exam writers feel pressured to embed curveballs/tricks in the questions or write the questions in the least straightforward way possible. This leads to longer exam time than expected due to time to process/decipher the questions and some strange/defective questions.
Very well put
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  #26  
Old 11-02-2018, 11:50 AM
CIPA CIPA is offline
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Thanks very much for taking the time to share feedback. All the points shared a valid and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I do still believe a question bank would be helpful (not with the expectation that a question very similar to what is present in the question bank will necessarily show up on the exam, but for many other reasons) but I also agree with the timing concerns mentioned and think these 2 points can be related.

Regarding timing - before the exam I would want to practice and see how long it takes me to complete each sample IQ. It would give me a sense for how much time to budget per IQ point especially since it may differ from my time budget per non-IQ point. E.g. I may need to target 2.5 mins per IQ point on the exam and 3.5 mins per non-IQ point in order to finish with time left over in general. That said, I totally agree that the point assignments to questions make no sense. So much work required to score 1.5 points for instance, and yes 20 ways to lose 0.25 points. Related to this, I also agree with the point that a HUGE part of passing the exam is exam strategy - not just knowledge of the material. If I will be sitting an exam with 2 IQs on it that sitting, I want to do several practice exams with 2 IQs on each one, otherwise I'm not preparing for what I'll see on the exam day itself. If we had a question bank of 30 questions, I would probably do around 15 or so for general practice, and set aside the rest to use in practice exams that I put together myself along with non-IQ questions from manuals/old exams etc. I also still maintain they would be helpful for educators (TIA and others) in generating their own sample questions for their own practice exams that they provide students with. They would have confidence that they're providing questions at the same assessment level that the CAS has set.
With the bank, we'd also have a better say for exactly how much more time we need on exams due to IQs. Regarding the suggestions to get rid of the reading period, are we sure an extra 15 mins would be enough each time? If we had many questions to sample with, we may have a more definite estimate. Because also, if the number of IQs increases by 1 each year, even if 15 mins extra is enough 1 year, will it be enough the next year? I also think that being able to provide feedback on them PRIOR to taking the exam makes sense e.g. in case the question is flawed somehow or if it's forcing us to read the examiner's mind like Robert Mahler mentioned. I would rather have the opportunity to make the CAS aware of those potential issues before the exam so that hopefully the IQs on the exam itself would be of better quality.

Anyway, a question bank is not the only remedy I suggested. There are alternative approaches that would also address some of these issues.

Regarding the point about exam length being limited by center restrictions, I feel the CAS should prioritize how long they think exams *should* be and design the exams as they want, then find a way to make it work with the test centers. I.e. I don't think the test centers should be driving how our exams are structured. I realize I say this like it's a black/white situation, but it's not actually that simple.

Back to the IQs, at least we mostly seem to agree that for various reasons these IQs - which have huge weight on the exam - are problematic for various reasons and are possibly not even addressing the issue that is the reason they were introduced in the first place.

Only a few comments shared here relative to the total views on this post, so there definitely may be other views out there. Perhaps the CAS should survey candidates directly about this. One option is a quick survey specifically on this topic. An alternative is the exam surveys. The Exam 8 survey this year had a million questions about the Fisher text. A couple of those could be replaced with explicit questions about IQs.
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  #27  
Old 11-02-2018, 12:21 PM
act_123 act_123 is offline
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TLDR - but I don't think the CAS cares if the are good study guides or not.
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hjacjswo View Post
I personally don't mind the concept of IQs. It's not a bad idea to have questions that integrate different subjects within the exam's syllabus to show how they all connect.
But, I think the issue is that it seems like Blooms is considred synonymous with tricky.
Instead of testing the understanding of the material, it feels like the exam writers feel pressured to embed curveballs/tricks in the questions or write the questions in the least straightforward way possible. This leads to longer exam time than expected due to time to process/decipher the questions and some strange/defective questions.
Agreed. I have long advocated for the CAS to just write a straight-up exam, no tricks, see what happens. If that results in a high MQC score, fine; if that means 80% of the candidates show proficiency and should pass, fine. (Quit laughing, the CAS has said it could happen!) Candidates are always going to screw up and make mistakes, there's no need to throw more stuff into questions or try to be cute with questions to trip up candidates.

I liked the idea of writing a question that combines a couple of papers so that candidates understand how they tie together. Those who do understand the material will be able to do this pretty easily; those who don't understand the material will struggle. I've also long advocated for having those writing questions learn how to write those questions such that it's pretty easy to pick out the candidates who know the material from those who don't. That's probably a different discussion, though. The goal of the exams is supposed to be to distinguish those who know the material from those who don't, and only pass those who clearly know the material. ("Clearly" is a term subject to interpretation.)

Throwing a bunch of papers into a mass question and lobbing it out, though? That's overkill; it's complexity for the sheer sake of trying to be overly difficult. If it's a great idea, just have one massive question that hits every paper on the syllabus. It's like the ongoing move to fewer points on the exam; if that's really such a great tool for splitting the candidate pool, just have one (1) question for like five (5) points. (Which is clearly an absurdity, but underscores that the tighter you group potential candidate scores, the less variation you potentially have and the harder it is to split the pool accurately.)
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  #29  
Old 12-27-2018, 02:25 PM
notsoheavyd notsoheavyd is offline
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Now that the pass mark and pass ratios and the letter from CAS to the candidates is out, does this change opinions?
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  #30  
Old 12-27-2018, 02:27 PM
act_123 act_123 is offline
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opinion is changed.

The IQs are the problem. Not so much the fact that they exist, the fact that length of exam isn't adjusted for it.
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