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  #161  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:53 PM
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Maphisto's Sidekick Maphisto's Sidekick is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcie View Post
First, the airing of grievances!
I thought the SOA and CAS boards already took care of that for us.
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  #162  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:57 AM
Veni Vidi Vici Veni Vidi Vici is offline
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Having had a conversation yesterday with a couple people whose specialty is Data Science [at least 10 years of experience in that field or field-related], I feel pretty comfortable saying that there's no threat of data scientists overtaking our realm any time soon.

The SOA, on the other hand, ...
"Data science" is a pretty broad term, and is practiced by folks with varying degrees of business acumen, but up to and including quite a few that either do or could run their own companies. They are already filling jobs actuaries used to fill. And that isn't going to change. I don't think everyone appreciates all the varied reasons for the creation of the CSPA credential. It's not just to train actuaries on data science. There is the phenomenon of valued data scientists at insurance companies who feel they need to take actuarial exams to be fully recognized in the industry. But a lot of material on actuarial exams really isn't relevant for their work, and so it doesn't make sense for employers to give them study time. So why not give them a much shorter path to a credential, that they can attain by learning the industry knowledge that they need (and that actuaries can also attain by learning the data science techniques they need)?

Yes, the CSPA credential is imperfect. But it should get better because in the end (and hopefully starting in the near future) it won't be run by actuaries but by data scientists. Data scientists are analogous to casualty actuaries in the sense that most of them didn't study that field in school and they don't want to go back to school when they could be making money. Perhaps a similar organization with a professional designation will be of value for them. Maybe that will be based on the CSPA; maybe it will be some other organization that borrows from those ideas; maybe it will happen some other way. I don't really care how it happens. I'd also add that considering the impact big data will have on all our lives, it's in the public interest that there be some professional organization overseeing data scientists, just as it's important that there are such organizations for actuaries, accountants, and engineers.

Anyhow, this is starting to become another reason for me to oppose the merger. While the SoA and CAS could combine forces effectively on iCAS/CSPA, and while it would be great to get health practitioners involved, I think the SoA would try to turn iCAS into something by, for, and about actuaries, and, for me, that's not what iCAS should be. (And yes, iCAS needs a new name. But I trust that will happen in time.)
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  #163  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:11 AM
IANAE IANAE is offline
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Anyhow, this is starting to become another reason for me to oppose the merger.
I've heard so many reasons not to merge, and so far not one good, unequivocal, reason to merge.
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  #164  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:21 AM
NAMAK NAMAK is offline
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Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici View Post
"Data science" is a pretty broad term, and is practiced by folks with varying degrees of business acumen, but up to and including quite a few that either do or could run their own companies. They are already filling jobs actuaries used to fill. And that isn't going to change. I don't think everyone appreciates all the varied reasons for the creation of the CSPA credential. It's not just to train actuaries on data science. There is the phenomenon of valued data scientists at insurance companies who feel they need to take actuarial exams to be fully recognized in the industry. But a lot of material on actuarial exams really isn't relevant for their work, and so it doesn't make sense for employers to give them study time. So why not give them a much shorter path to a credential, that they can attain by learning the industry knowledge that they need (and that actuaries can also attain by learning the data science techniques they need)?

Yes, the CSPA credential is imperfect. But it should get better because in the end (and hopefully starting in the near future) it won't be run by actuaries but by data scientists. Data scientists are analogous to casualty actuaries in the sense that most of them didn't study that field in school and they don't want to go back to school when they could be making money. Perhaps a similar organization with a professional designation will be of value for them. Maybe that will be based on the CSPA; maybe it will be some other organization that borrows from those ideas; maybe it will happen some other way. I don't really care how it happens. I'd also add that considering the impact big data will have on all our lives, it's in the public interest that there be some professional organization overseeing data scientists, just as it's important that there are such organizations for actuaries, accountants, and engineers.

Anyhow, this is starting to become another reason for me to oppose the merger. While the SoA and CAS could combine forces effectively on iCAS/CSPA, and while it would be great to get health practitioners involved, I think the SoA would try to turn iCAS into something by, for, and about actuaries, and, for me, that's not what iCAS should be. (And yes, iCAS needs a new name. But I trust that will happen in time.)
Real “data scientists” have masters degrees. I wonder if that’s the next step for this profession... require more credits (masters)to take exams (like he CPA did)
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  #165  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:26 AM
Veni Vidi Vici Veni Vidi Vici is offline
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Originally Posted by IANAE View Post
sure...because... bigger is better, right?

"Milliman is organized exactly like this..."
That's a horrible selling point, and Brian should stop using it.

(A) That was part of Brad Smith's stated reason for the hostile takeover attempt 6-7 years ago. (He was another Milliman guy.)

(B) Many casualty actuaries will instantly think: "We should merge with the Instititutes (the CPCU Society); my company is organized exactly like that. So there..."

This isn't just losing votes. It's going to make it tough for Milliman people to get elected to the CAS board in the future.
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  #166  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:31 AM
Veni Vidi Vici Veni Vidi Vici is offline
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Originally Posted by NAMAK View Post
Real “data scientists” have masters degrees. I wonder if that’s the next step for this profession... require more credits (masters)to take exams (like he CPA did)
Many real data scientists have master's degrees of PhDs; that's one of the things that makes it awkward when they decide they want to take actuarial exams. They are already being paid for an advanced degree so you can't just give them that many exam raises.

However, some successful data scientists do not have master's degrees, and that is unlikely to change, as there is crossover from tech where being a 99th- %-ile coder makes up for being a high school dropout.
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