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  #41  
Old 05-04-2018, 03:38 PM
Pension.Mathematics Pension.Mathematics is offline
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Originally Posted by PeppermintPatty View Post
Nope, P&C.
Well, all of my comments are based on SOA tracks.

Maybe the P&C qualification process is better designed? Maybe it's because you only have 1 track, you don't see this kind of unreasonable disparity I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Chopin-Lover View Post
At least with my employer - various tracks.

Also, non-native speakers <> people who are bad in English. In fact I've seen a lot of native speakers who have terrible written English, and vice versa.
when you are under time pressure and have to write down enough to convince the grader that you know what you are talking about, non-native speakers have a serious disadvantage.

again, see the two passing list I linked above and pay attention to last names.
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  #42  
Old 05-04-2018, 03:59 PM
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Just a note:

https://www.soa.org/board-announceme...board-meeting/

Quote:
Adapting SOA Education To International Markets

The SOA Board reviewed and approved the recommendations of the Adapting SOA Education to International Markets Task Force to ensure the education the SOA provides in an international context is relevant to key stakeholders including candidates, members and employers. The task force recommended new international education principles, which have been incorporated into updated Principles for SOA Prequalification Education, and specific tactics that will be reflected in the SOA’s prequalification education and continuing professional development offerings.

The updated principles and tactics:

Emphasize the importance of developing actuaries with a globally relevant education and perspective while affirming the need for actuaries to be able to practice in specific local jurisdictions.

Recommend adding more international content to both the ASA and FSA curriculums.

Affirm the use of English in the examination context, except where required by law and sufficient demand is measured.

Encourage the use of local languages for continued professional development offerings.


“Developing actuaries with a global perspective is central to the SOA strategy overall and essential to the SOA’s prequalification strategy,” said SOA President, Mike Lombardi, FSA, CERA, FCIA, MAAA. “The work of the task force has affirmed the SOA’s strong position in this regard and the recommendations will position the SOA to further improve our position as a global educator of actuaries.”
So, evidently, the SOA actually checked with employers, candidates, and international members and found out that they valued the English-based component, as it made it more of an international credential in the biz. [I watched a webcast the other day for SOA section council members, where this statement was made, and it seemed credible.]

Yes, it's more challenging for non-native speakers of English (or French), but there ya go.

If a different language becomes globally dominant as English has, then I suppose they'll switch to that.
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  #43  
Old 05-04-2018, 04:01 PM
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In addition, there are US- and Canada-specific FSA exams now, and they basically mentioned if they got a critical mass (or if there was enough specificity for another jurisdiction), they would develop exams for that, perhaps.



Note, that wasn't exactly a consideration for developing the General Insurance track, but whatever.
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  #44  
Old 05-04-2018, 04:07 PM
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Yes, it's more challenging for non-native speakers of English (or French), but there ya go.
I am okay with that. In fact, I think that is the way it should be.

What I am not okay with, is the fact that the prelims are 100% math, which directly lures a lot of non-native speakers into this career path, and by the time these folks reach the qualitative fellowship exams (or even FAP), they are too far into their career to turn back.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:30 PM
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I am okay with that. In fact, I think that is the way it should be.

What I am not okay with, is the fact that the prelims are 100% math, which directly lures a lot of non-native speakers into this career path, and by the time these folks reach the qualitative fellowship exams (or even FAP), they are too far into their career to turn back.
Okay, you keep saying that.

It's like the people in pensions who say they can't escape (though many have...it's just that these people don't want to make the trade-offs necessary to change fields).

But let's go there: you're talking about people who have careers. Careers, evidently, where they don't really need to be able to use English to do well in their jobs but for some reason really need these credentials.



I'm skeptical about this situation.
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  #46  
Old 05-04-2018, 05:14 PM
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Okay, you keep saying that.

It's like the people in pensions who say they can't escape (though many have...it's just that these people don't want to make the trade-offs necessary to change fields).

But let's go there: you're talking about people who have careers. Careers, evidently, where they don't really need to be able to use English to do well in their jobs but for some reason really need these credentials.



I'm skeptical about this situation.
I could maybe believe it about an actuarial student in China if there are no Chinese exams. But I think China formed a society complete with examinations (that I assume are offered in Mandarin) a few years ago... I could be wrong about that.

Otherwise, most of the people taking exams are practicing in the US or Canada, and even if they are non-native speakers they'd definitely need to use English and/or French (which is an option) in their jobs.
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  #47  
Old 05-04-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by campbell View Post
Okay, you keep saying that.

It's like the people in pensions who say they can't escape (though many have...it's just that these people don't want to make the trade-offs necessary to change fields).

But let's go there: you're talking about people who have careers. Careers, evidently, where they don't really need to be able to use English to do well in their jobs but for some reason really need these credentials.



I'm skeptical about this situation.
I personally know 5+ people who have failed at least 3 consecutive fellowship sittings, 5+ career ASAs.

It's not about ESL vs. native English speakers, that's just an example I used.

It's about luring people into a supposedly quantitative field but offering extremely qualitative exams down the road, the fact that it forces ESL folks to do the investment track is only a symptom, not the cause. Why do you keep focusing on the symptom?
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  #48  
Old 05-04-2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pension.Mathematics View Post
I personally know 5+ people who have failed at least 3 consecutive fellowship sittings, 5+ career ASAs.

It's not about ESL vs. native English speakers, that's just an example I used.

It's about luring people into a supposedly quantitative field but offering extremely qualitative exams down the road, the fact that it forces ESL folks to do the investment track is only a symptom, not the cause. Why do you keep focusing on the symptom?
Maybe the problem, to the extent there is a problem, is that the later exams are too qualitative? By your own words, the later exams are “extremely qualitative”. Though somehow, per your earlier posts, those “extremely qualitative” exams do test the mathematics adequately.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pension.Mathematics View Post
I personally know 5+ people who have failed at least 3 consecutive fellowship sittings, 5+ career ASAs.

It's not about ESL vs. native English speakers, that's just an example I used.

It's about luring people into a supposedly quantitative field but offering extremely qualitative exams down the road, the fact that it forces ESL folks to do the investment track is only a symptom, not the cause. Why do you keep focusing on the symptom?
Maybe people should become actuaries because they'd like to do actuarial work rather than because they found they can memorize the answers to a bunch of the early professional exams!?

Actually, jk, we should change everything in case people fall into that "trap".
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:54 PM
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Okay, so this isn't actually about being able to use the language.

It's that the nature of the FSA exams is very different than the prelims. Yep, they are.

So what?

You don't need to have an FSA to have a good career. When I got my FSA, I was reporting to a career ASA. I've worked with many people who are higher level than I am who have "only" ASAs.

And then there are loads of people around who have "only" a few exams under their belts and manage to do something different. Horrors.
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