Actuarial Outpost
 
Go Back   Actuarial Outpost > Actuarial Discussion Forum > Careers - Employment
FlashChat Actuarial Discussion Preliminary Exams CAS/SOA Exams Cyberchat Around the World Suggestions

DW Simpson
Actuarial Jobs

Visit our site for the most up to date jobs for actuaries.

Actuarial Salary Surveys
Property & Casualty, Health, Life, Pension and Non-Tradtional Jobs.

Actuarial Meeting Schedule
Browse this year's meetings and which recruiters will attend.

Contact DW Simpson
Have a question?
Let's talk.
You'll be glad you did.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-10-2016, 01:27 AM
Captain Oveur Captain Oveur is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 12,704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian Atreides View Post
Fault of the candidate . . . not the interviewer.
Not sure I agree with this. I've noticed it from both sides of the interview table.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-10-2016, 01:01 PM
Vorian Atreides's Avatar
Vorian Atreides Vorian Atreides is offline
Wiki/Note Contributor
CAS
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hitler's Secret Bunker
Studying for ACAS
College: Hard Knocks
Favorite beer: Sam Adams Cherry Wheat
Posts: 59,688
Default

Candidate has the burden to provide/demonstrate the "wow" . . .

While the company may end up losing out on better candidates, that is an entirely different issue.
__________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing

Why should I worry about dying? It’s not going to happen in my lifetime!


Freedom of speech is not a license to discourtesy

#BLACKMATTERLIVES
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-10-2016, 02:37 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian Atreides View Post
Candidate has the burden to provide/demonstrate the "wow" . . .
Not sure why you feel that way. I think I disagree, Or, at least, if you feel that the burden is on the candidate and is therefore not on the company. You should both be trying to figure out if this is a good fit and sell yourself. Why would you ever not be trying to sell yourself, your team, or the company you represent?

So, both interviewer and interviewee should be trying to 'demonstrate the "wow" ' IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian Atreides View Post
While the company may end up losing out on better candidates, that is an entirely different issue.
Since the interview is often where you sell somebody on why they should come to the company, I don't see how it can possibly be separate?

And I absolutely feel that if you assume the burden is on the candidate to make the conversation productive or insightful or whatever else, you definitely will miss out on some of the better candidates, who are going to be wowed by employers that are making the effort to impress.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-12-2016, 06:39 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,048
Default

More of a "big picture" issue than the normal mechanics and details, but some really great advice for somebody trying to learn how to interview. This is from a podcast, "The Tim Ferriss Show", #199 and everything in this quote is spoken by Stephen Dubner (co-auhor of Freakonomics), the first part is him reading a question that was asked of him, then his answer. Starting at 11:15 of the podcast

Quote:
Marty wrote to ask "it seems like Dubner's unique ability to tell a great story (oh, I like it, flattery), is what really adds a viral component to the deep science and typically boring economic research. How could that story-fication help other hard sciences or traditionally boring subjects that are really important?"

....

I agree that storytelling is incredibly important. There are many ways to argue for why that is true.

I'll give one example, one example would be: What is the best-read book in the history of the world? Arguably (not even that arguably), most people would argue that it's the Bible. So, what is the Bible? Well it's a lot of things, but it contains the most famous set of laws in the history of humankind, right? The Ten Commandments. So, you would think that everybody would know those. Since it's the most famous laws in the most-read book.

Yet, if you ask people, it turns out that I believe it's about 17% of Americans that can name the Ten Commandments. And a relatively large share can't name even one of the Ten Commandments. So, lest you think this is just a product of people having a bad memory, I would say that 17% can recite all Ten Commandments. A higher percentage can recite either all the ingredients of the Big Mac, or all six siblings in the Brady Bunch.

So, that's pretty weird, that the most famous set of laws in the history of humankind, in the most-read book of all time, aren't that well-known or at least that well-remembered.

So what does that indicate? I would argue, this is just me making this argument, I would argue it indicates that we - meaning humans - really love stories and gravitate to stories. Because what we do remember from the Bible, even people who are not religious at all, even people who have no connection to Judeo-Christian biblical traditions at all; the stories from the Bible continue to be passed down, and continue to be known and discussed and you know maybe not argued about. Some people argue about them in an academic or theological way or even a political way.

But people know who Moses was. People know about Adam and Eve. Once you get into Christian theology, people certainly know about Jesus and the stories about Jesus, even if they haven't read the Bible at all.

And so to me that is an argument for - and we can make a whole lot of other arguments about Gilgamesh and the Odyssey and Shakespeare, and all the way up to and maybe even including Pauly Shore. That is a piece of evidence that storytelling has a power that goes well beyond the sum of its parts.
The rest of the podcast has some more useful stuff as well .

And in case it's not clear,
Things people remember = things that get you hired
The Ten Commandments = Your GPA, number of exams, and computer skills
Stories about Moses, Adam & Eve, Jesus = your stories about prior work, campus activities, or family history.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-12-2016, 07:06 PM
ElDucky's Avatar
ElDucky ElDucky is offline
Free Mason
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In a van, down by the river
Studying for Let me worry about blank
Favorite beer: Trappistes Rochefort 8
Posts: 39,023
Default

There's no commandment about coveting thy employer's wife.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-12-2016, 10:42 PM
Vorian Atreides's Avatar
Vorian Atreides Vorian Atreides is offline
Wiki/Note Contributor
CAS
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hitler's Secret Bunker
Studying for ACAS
College: Hard Knocks
Favorite beer: Sam Adams Cherry Wheat
Posts: 59,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Not sure why you feel that way. I think I disagree, Or, at least, if you feel that the burden is on the candidate and is therefore not on the company. You should both be trying to figure out if this is a good fit and sell yourself. Why would you ever not be trying to sell yourself, your team, or the company you represent?

So, both interviewer and interviewee should be trying to 'demonstrate the "wow" ' IMO.


Since the interview is often where you sell somebody on why they should come to the company, I don't see how it can possibly be separate?

And I absolutely feel that if you assume the burden is on the candidate to make the conversation productive or insightful or whatever else, you definitely will miss out on some of the better candidates, who are going to be wowed by employers that are making the effort to impress.
[My apologies for the following ramble . . . ]

The candidate has no control over the interviewer, but can certainly focus on what they can do to provide a "wow" factor.

And to be sure, a company that has a poor interviewing team is likely going to not recruit very many talented candidates, but only if those candidates have other job opportunities.

But a candidate going into an interview expecting to be "wow'd" will more often than not be under-wow'd. And it will only get worse if they decide to lower their interviewing game as a result.

The candidate going in focused on being the humble-wow-factor is far more likely to do just that, regardless of the interviewer or interviewing team.

So my comment of "the burden is on the candidate" is intended to convey that the candidate should go in focused on what they can control and push through those thinks they dislike, but have no control over.
__________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing

Why should I worry about dying? It’s not going to happen in my lifetime!


Freedom of speech is not a license to discourtesy

#BLACKMATTERLIVES
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-12-2016, 10:42 PM
Vorian Atreides's Avatar
Vorian Atreides Vorian Atreides is offline
Wiki/Note Contributor
CAS
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hitler's Secret Bunker
Studying for ACAS
College: Hard Knocks
Favorite beer: Sam Adams Cherry Wheat
Posts: 59,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElDucky View Post
There's no commandment about coveting thy employer's wife.
What if your employer is your neighbor?


I guess that married State Farm males are safe from having their spouse coveted?.
__________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing

Why should I worry about dying? It’s not going to happen in my lifetime!


Freedom of speech is not a license to discourtesy

#BLACKMATTERLIVES
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-13-2016, 04:12 PM
Dr T Non-Fan Dr T Non-Fan is offline
Member
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Just outside of Nowhere
Posts: 88,524
Default

How about:
1. Burden on candidate with a lot of competition to wow.
2. Burden on employer to wow when interviewing top candidates.
3. Might be some above-average candidates where candidate and employer both should be wow'ing.
__________________
DTNF's Basic Philosophy Regarding Posting: There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling! -- Jeff Albertson (CBG)
DTNF's Trademarked Standard Career Advice: "pass some exams and get back to us."
DTNF's Major advice: "Doesn't matter. Choose major that helps you with goal of Career Advice."
DTNF's Résumé Advice: Have a good and interesting answer to every item on it for the interviews.
DTNF's Law of Job Offers: You not only have to qualify for the position, but you also have to be the best candidate available for the offer.
DTNF's Work Philosophy: I am actuary. Please insert data. -- Actuary Actuarying Rodriguez.
Twitches' Advice to Crazy Women: Please just go buy your 30 cats already.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-13-2016, 04:22 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr T Non-Fan View Post
How about:
1. Burden on candidate with a lot of competition to wow.
2. Burden on employer to wow when interviewing top candidates.
3. Might be some above-average candidates where candidate and employer both should be wow'ing.
I'm still here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Why would you ever not be trying to sell yourself, your team, or the company you represent?
I've interviewed people before that I knew wouldn't make the cut - not smart enough, not experienced enough, or just not the right "fit".They still talk to people, they might interview later for a different position or I might meet them in another context. Maybe there's a full day of interviewing and somehow I'm the only one who didn't see how awesome they were, everybody else wants to hire them. I'm never really interviewing where I'm not actively trying to have a good conversation and convince the person that they want to work here, even if I'm convinced that I don't want them here. I mean the time is already being spent, may as well make the effort.

Now, if your first two bullets mean simply that *more of the burden* falls on that person, then maybe I agree, maybe.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-13-2016, 06:57 PM
Dr T Non-Fan Dr T Non-Fan is offline
Member
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Just outside of Nowhere
Posts: 88,524
Default

Yes, more of the burden, so continuous than discrete. Knowing where one falls on the spectrum might not be possible.

Note that the situations of #1 and #2 are not equal in size. #1 is very small sample of the candidate pool (talking EL here, not every job opening ever). #2 is a whole crapload of candidates, and those in the middle sized somewhere in between. I imagine a pyramid shape more so than, say, normal distribution.
__________________
DTNF's Basic Philosophy Regarding Posting: There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling! -- Jeff Albertson (CBG)
DTNF's Trademarked Standard Career Advice: "pass some exams and get back to us."
DTNF's Major advice: "Doesn't matter. Choose major that helps you with goal of Career Advice."
DTNF's Résumé Advice: Have a good and interesting answer to every item on it for the interviews.
DTNF's Law of Job Offers: You not only have to qualify for the position, but you also have to be the best candidate available for the offer.
DTNF's Work Philosophy: I am actuary. Please insert data. -- Actuary Actuarying Rodriguez.
Twitches' Advice to Crazy Women: Please just go buy your 30 cats already.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
*PLEASE NOTE: Posts are not checked for accuracy, and do not
represent the views of the Actuarial Outpost or its sponsors.
Page generated in 0.33090 seconds with 10 queries