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  #21  
Old 03-01-2006, 11:31 AM
Westley Westley is offline
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OK, everything you need is in this thread, just read it. I'll be back on the AO/RF after Lent. Will check PMs occasionally.

Good luck with your job searches.


OK, now I'm going to use this post to hide my tracking of former sig line quotes, since I keep thinking I might run a "best of" someday



I don't know how you are doing for friends, probably not very well, but you might get along with GosuJohn --remilard
Well maybe everyone is born closed-minded, arrogant and brainwashed. Did you ever think of that? --Listeria
Now I'm mean. I'm cool with that. Because I'm lucky, and for some reason, I assume completely independent of my mean parenting approach, I have pretty good kids. --gomer_tree
We've decided to compromise and do it her way ---Pseudolus
The more information we have, the more useful our responses. Well, not mine, but in general. --Woodrow
Make sure she is real easy on the eyes and also just easy in general. --Abused Student
"getting drunk and tasing your buddy" was evidently not a legitimate reason for the broward county sheriff's office to permit use of a taser. --MattTheSkywalker
I hate icebreakers. That's why I quit church. --tbug
I think the people on this board have the math skills to figure out that they can do better than to pay $400 for half an hour with a $300/hour hooker. --Loner
From the title, I just assumed this was another JAS attention-whoring thread. --tbug
Not to be difficult. (This time) --MattTheSkywalker
I was doing an assignment for my online Amateur Sociology class at MTSU. --Baron von Raschke
Are you worried about being drafted? You are probably getting too old by now. You've spent your prime war-fighting years whining on the internet. --shekky tree
read the original post, clown. --MattTheSkywalker
It's tagged as satire... Did you go to a public school or something? --cubedbee
OMG. I just realized that all those boy stories JAS has ever told us are all true. Because when she makes crap up, it's really really boring. --SamTheEagle
Oh and the Clemson girl was very arrogant!! I felt offended and insecure inside when she said she could beat me at basketball. --gosujohn
women around me without a long-term commitment seemto be the ones having the most children. Although... most of them don't actually raise their children to adulthood, they're taken away at some point. -JAS
yea, if history repeats itself, I'll just learn it the next time around -yanz
I would be happy to become engaged to Westley. -Listeria
Jack it would be nice if you'd quit calling Jersey the Garbage State. It's not like Staten Island is exactly a jewel. -Loner
I hate to break the new to you but your son witnessed Santa plowing your wife. -Jack
I do not recommend a dinner of Brandy and Oreos, which I once partook of -Maine-iac

Hedge Funds: 1) Give us millions. 2) You don't know what your money is invested in. 3) You can't ask us what were doing. 4) We'll tell you trading results when we feel like it. 5) You can only take your money out when we say so, not when you want to. 6) Pay us gigantic fees.
American public: This is an awesome idea.
---tenthring

Sean Archer:Webster McRiley::Michelangelo's David:The ashtray your kid made at camp ---Luda
Math is like lazy white person kryptonite. ---tenthring
Let's face it, I am a pretty big deal in the actuarial Master Cleanse community. ---FormLetter
I used to listen to El Shaddai and pretend that the hebrew words translated into something filthy and perverted. She could have been her generation's Britney Spears. ---Person Man
I can pretry much guarantee that you will not be taken seriously by those of us with actual influence. ---jas66kent
One day JSA666kent is going to give you resume advice, Westley. Maybe he has already. I would believe that. ---FormLetter
govt launders the existence of victims to immoral behavior, thereby making it so much easier to rationalize ---Chuck
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it's almost like you lack some self awareness, which would not be a first in the actuarial community ---tommie frazier

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Last edited by Westley; 07-31-2015 at 11:15 AM..
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2006, 01:51 PM
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silverfox silverfox is offline
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But Westley, you haven't helped me with my job search yet. Don't leave me!
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  #23  
Old 03-01-2006, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley
OK, everything you need is in this thread, just read it. I'll be back on the AO/RF after Lent.
Westley, I really think you are missing the point if you give up doing the Lord's work during Lent.
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2006, 01:04 PM
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Westley, I really think you are missing the point if you give up doing the Lord's work during Lent.
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  #25  
Old 03-15-2006, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley
OK, everything you need is in this thread, just read it. I'll be back on the AO/RF after Lent. Will check PMs occasionally.

Good luck with your job searches.
I thought Lent was a day or two of starvation. I just looked it up and it's 40 days of no Westley.
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2006, 05:50 PM
Westley Westley is offline
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Following are some comments from an email exchange I had recently regarding negotiating salary. The person was negotiating and was looking for advice on how to present it. I won't give you all the background, some of the comments it's not clear what I was responding to, but I think it's all clear in the aggregate regardless. Some of this may not be accurate in every instance, but gives you something to think about.

Also, generally, be aware that the advantage to email is that they will remember exactly what you said, but the advantage to speaking on the phone is that you can sound interested and such, and it doesn't sound different than what you want. Think about how bad it sounds to write in an email: "I want more money." Now, think about how it sounds in a conversation as part of the discussion about ho wmuch you like the company, how excited you are to get the offer, etc.

I would call the person that is coordinating (probably HR) and ask where they're at in the process. There's a lot of approvals and whatnot to go through to get numbers approved, so it takes a while. In my company, when we make an offer, if there's negotiation, the HR person goes back to the local office manager (who may be travelling that day) to get his input, then goes to the national director (who may have meetings that day) to get his answer (he decides), then runs it up two level higher to get simple signature approvals (either of them could have a vacation day).

If the company has told you that they will make an offer, but they have not actually made an offer (i.e., no numbers have been mentioned). Call and just say that you are checking in. I would make sure to start off by politely apologizing for bothering them, you're not trying to be impatient, but you are very excited about the opportunity, so you are just checking back to see what the status is. And, mention wat you are giving up. "I wanted to mak you aware that by leaving Company X, I am giving up (name as much stuff as you can). I'm definitely interested in your company, but I have a pretty good situation here that I am leaving behind as well, so I just want you to know where I am coming from. If there's any questions about any of that, I'd be glad to discuss it." I would recommend that you say that sentence exactly the way that I wrote it, if you can. Sometimes, a certain way of saying things doesn't fit your style of speech, but if you can, say that exactly. Then, also mention the one or two most important things that you are giving up - no more than a sentence or two. Something like "I do have four weeks of vacation here, so if I'm taking a step down on that, I have to take that into consideration, of course". Also, if they respond by pointing out (for example) that you only get two weeks of vacation, but the company has more holidays - 18 - than most, plus you also get to take a minimum of five sick days, so if you're never sick, that's additional time off, the response is "Great, that's good to know, thanks for sharing that with me - that's a pretty generous policy". Basically, while you're telling them all the good stuff that you are leaving behind, they are going to tell you all the good stuff that you are walking into, which is fair enough. Essentially, this part just boils down to sharing information so that everybody knows what you ar eleaving and what you are getting.

If they already gave you a number, and you made a counteroffer or rejected it, it's a little trickier, since you are clearly negotiating, but the conversation isn't that different. Also, if they gave you a number, and your response is about things that they cannot change (corporate bonus plan, for example), then they will probably be expecting you to give them a number - which is difficult, but not impossible. Let me know if that's the case, and I'll be glad to give what advice I can. So, if they offered you $X, and you essentially said "well, since I'm giving up benefits A and B, I was hoping for a little more than that", they are going to say "What amount did you have in mind?" and they will expect you to have an answer.[/font]
[font=Arial Black]Keep the entire conversation pleasant and upbeat, and the last thing you say is: "Thanks for taking the time to update me. I'm really excited about the prospect of working for (Prudential, Allstate, Tillinghast, whatever), and I look forward to hearing back from you (OR, I will get back to you by next Monday or whatever). Have a great day.

NEXT POST

Depends on what you are looking for and what the issues are. I would start the conversation something like "I'm trying to make sure you understand the entire package that I have at my current position and that I understand the entire package that is available at (the new company) just to make sure that I make the best possible decisions. I listed out some thing that I have at my current position, and...." depending on the details that you have, you may want to mention something that you are not sure if you are giving up or not - do you know their vacation policy? do you know how their bonus program/tuition reimbursement/etc works? - or you may want to mention something that you know you are losing - maybe you know that you will have fewer vacation days at the new position. Emphasize that you are trying to look at the total package, and do what's right for your family (don't say you're trying to do what's right for you, even if that's the case), and you just want to understand. The good thing about this strategy is, if you get to the end of the day, and they don't offer more money, but you still want to take it, you just tell them thanks, now that you understand their offer, you are excited to accept.

When you discuss specific pieces that the new company is worse than the old, ask if there's any flexibility (if that makes sense - there's guaranteed to be no flexibility in the pension plan, but there might be in the vacation days) and explain again that you are giving something up. If the points you raised are about when your next review/salary adjustment is (the start of our whole conversation), then bring that up - ask if there's flexibility for an earlier review and be specific - "if I am performing at an appropriate level, would I then be elgible for a full raise, similar to other actuaries?" If they have no flexibility (on pension, for example), and they have room to negotiate on salary to make up the difference, they will likely say so. They may ask you to name a number. My advice goes back to my previous PM: if you really want the job, don't be greedy. If you don't mind staying at your current job until something better comes along, you can be greedy. Assuming you're fairly young, you might be making $60k or $75k (I have no idea where you are on exams or experience) - you might present it something like this: "I am giving up 401k matches worth 5% of salary, vacation of one week (2% of the year), and missing out on an annual raise that would go into effect in just a month worth perhaps 4% of salary, so that's something like 11% of salary that I am losing. Now, I'm not discounting that you have already offered a raise of 5% over my current salary, but considering cost of living and the risk of taking on a new job rather than staying at a safe job, I was hoping to get to $X" and if $X is less than 10% above their current offer, I would be surprised if they didn't either go part way or all the way, 5% is very safe in my experience. BUT THERE IS ALWAYS A RISK IN NEGOTIATING RATHER THAN JUST ACCEPTING. In my mind, it's worth negotiating, but be careful.

Also, don't name a number until you have gone through all aspects of the offer. That is, if they ask you how much lost vacation is worth, say "well, I'm trying to understand the total offer, can you walk me through the rest of the details first?" At the end of the day, don't name a number unless you have to, and then balance a mild counter versus aggressive negotiating based on how much you want the offer.

If they offer you anything, get it in writing. Any HR person that is offended that you want all the details in writing is scamming you or incompetent. This shouldn't be a problem for them. "Can you send me an amended offer letter with the details we discussed?"

In order to give you more advice, I would need some numbers and the details of the email you sent. You may or may not be comfortable discussing those details with me. No offense if you don't want to tell me, it's very private, but if you want specifics, you can send me specifics.
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America is ready for a new kind of corruption. ---Dr T Non-Fan
it's almost like you lack some self awareness, which would not be a first in the actuarial community ---tommie frazier

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Last edited by Westley; 08-13-2006 at 05:14 PM..
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2006, 05:51 PM
Westley Westley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfox
I thought Lent was a day or two of starvation. I just looked it up and it's 40 days of no Westley.
I could have stopped by to help, but if you don't even know how long Lent is..... it's not my job to help heathens
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America is ready for a new kind of corruption. ---Dr T Non-Fan
it's almost like you lack some self awareness, which would not be a first in the actuarial community ---tommie frazier

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  #28  
Old 06-16-2006, 09:20 AM
Westley Westley is offline
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OK, moving everything up to the second page and reorganizing:

Westley, why should I listen to your advice, you're such a jerk:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=116588

Advice that applies mostly to people still in school/looking for their first job:

Westley's thread on resumes - some entertaining, some good advice:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=17533
Really, resumes should only be one page? Why?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=91933
What am I supposed to ask/say in an interview?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=82647
How do I 'correctly' answer this question?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=101609
Can I do an internship after graduating?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=17530
Post #238 dicsusses whether you can get a job with only one or two exams
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...=17533&page=10
What if I'm trying my best to find a job and can't find anything and I'm totally frustrated? Then what do I do?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=110252
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=45040
What about my embarassingly bad GPA?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=58254
What do I say to follow up on a resume that I sent a few weeks ago? How do I avoid a bunch of empty silence?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=41718
I'm getting ready to take Exam P, and I want to do investment work, how do I get there?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=73480
MaxPrime's view of a very similar situation regarding "What do you want to do?"
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu....php?p=1414525
Charlie Brown discussses "What does an actuary do?" Note: P/C bias, but good.
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=74943
Should I do it myself or have my boss do it? He can do it faster why not give it to him? (Note: I consider this some of my best advice, almost any young person can benefit from reading this)
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=31380
How well do foreign students need to speak English? How can I tell if it's a problem for getting me a job? Can you proofread my English?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=87457
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu....php?p=1919455
How do I decline a job offer:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=118084




Advice for people already working:
Basics of negotiating:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...19#post1285019
Can I use a reference without checking with that person? What's the worst that could happen - they just won't say much. Right?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=50334
Using multiple recruiters:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=30299
Should I be a job hopper if I'm trying to increase my salary, or is it better to stay with my company?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...t=78375&page=3
What's an Exec MBA?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=80071
Can I use the DWS scale to negotiate salary?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=84341
Some exceptional advice from MNBridge on discussing salary with your current employer (post 56):
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...t=84665&page=3
My boss is a big old meany, what should I do?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=88640

Other stuff:
Does it make sense to go insurance now and switch to consulting after I pass exams, since consulting pays better?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...=1#post2023690
Why do all these companies ask for good communication skills? I mean, I talk well, what do they want?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=112796
What cities do actuaries primarily work in? Note: not my work.
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ead.php?t=4227
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...d.php?t=111339
Who's the largest employer?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=40649
Really bad recruiter stories:
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=52413
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=21018
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ead.php?t=3093
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ead.php?t=2720
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ead.php?t=9043
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=16133

Other recruiter stuff:
I should just ignore recruiters until I need a job, right?
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=84223
http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actu...ad.php?t=73827 (Post #32 is particularly good)
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America is ready for a new kind of corruption. ---Dr T Non-Fan
it's almost like you lack some self awareness, which would not be a first in the actuarial community ---tommie frazier

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Last edited by Westley; 09-19-2007 at 07:51 AM..
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2006, 06:34 PM
DW Simpson DW Simpson is offline
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I like this Best of thread, and I occasionally pull links from here for the General Actuarial FAQ section.
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  #30  
Old 06-23-2006, 07:36 AM
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Has anyone thought of making this thread a sticky? Seems appropriate to me.
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