Actuarial Outpost
 
Go Back   Actuarial Outpost > Actuarial Discussion Forum > General Actuarial
FlashChat Actuarial Discussion Preliminary Exams CAS/SOA Exams Cyberchat Around the World Suggestions

Search Actuarial Jobs by State @ DWSimpson.com:
AL AK AR AZ CA CO CT DE FL GA HI ID IL IN IA KS KY LA
ME MD MA MI MN MS MO MT NE NH NJ NM NY NV NC ND
OH OK OR PA RI SC SD TN TX UT VT VA WA WV WI WY

General Actuarial Non-Specific Actuarial Topics - Before posting a thread, please browse over our other sections to see if there is a better fit, such as Careers - Employment, Actuarial Science Universities Forum or any of our other 100+ forums.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-29-2018, 01:20 AM
Colonel Smoothie's Avatar
Colonel Smoothie Colonel Smoothie is online now
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
College: Jamba Juice University
Favorite beer: AO Amber Ale
Posts: 49,717
Default

and that's why I never finished high school
__________________
Recommended Readings for the EL Actuary || Recommended Readings for the EB Actuary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigmeister General View Post
Don't you even think about sending me your resume. I'll turn it into an origami boulder and return it to you.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-30-2018, 05:33 AM
JohnLocke's Avatar
JohnLocke JohnLocke is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoanonstop View Post
As I mentioned before, anyone who is going to cough up $3600 for this crap is just buying perception. There are a billion cheap/free resources to learn this stuff. If you need a credential to show others you "know things", something is wrong in the first place.

-Riley
I'm totally on board with you with respect to learning. However, buying perception has value and since evaluating talent is hard credentials matter. This is ecspecially true of actuaries who have biases because of how we are credentialed.

It might not be hard for great data scientists to evaluate each other but imagine you are in an actuarial dept that has never built a predictive model, what would you do?

The price is totally absurd though.
__________________
i always post when i'm in a shitty mood. if i didn't do that, i'd so rarely post. --AO Fan

Lucky for you I was raised by people with a good moral center because if that were not the case, you guys would be in a lot of trouble.
So be very, very glad people like me exist. Your future basically depends on it. --jas66kent

The stock market is going to go up significantly due to Trump Economics --jas66kent

Last edited by JohnLocke; 03-30-2018 at 06:03 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-30-2018, 01:17 PM
Colonel Smoothie's Avatar
Colonel Smoothie Colonel Smoothie is online now
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
College: Jamba Juice University
Favorite beer: AO Amber Ale
Posts: 49,717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
I'm totally on board with you with respect to learning. However, buying perception has value and since evaluating talent is hard credentials matter. This is especially true of actuaries who have biases because of how we are credentialed.

It might not be hard for great data scientists to evaluate each other but imagine you are in an actuarial dept that has never built a predictive model, what would you do?

The price is totally absurd though.
I suppose there's a hazing component to it as well. People who have sacrificed years of their lives getting a PhD, actuarial credential, or even a bachelors degree or purposely not having children don't want to give a free pass to people who didn't make those sacrifices. Doesn't matter how good they are.
__________________
Recommended Readings for the EL Actuary || Recommended Readings for the EB Actuary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigmeister General View Post
Don't you even think about sending me your resume. I'll turn it into an origami boulder and return it to you.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-30-2018, 04:37 PM
whoanonstop's Avatar
whoanonstop whoanonstop is offline
Member
Non-Actuary
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Studying for Spark / Scala
College: College of William and Mary
Favorite beer: Orange Juice
Posts: 5,913
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
It might not be hard for great data scientists to evaluate each other but imagine you are in an actuarial dept that has never built a predictive model, what would you do?
I agree with this 100%. What I'm trying to say is this credential feels like a benefit for employers and lower end employees...

If I was someone who wanted to build predictive models, and by that I mean, REALLY build predictive models... would I want to work at a place that needs to look at this credential to value my worth? Wouldn't I be better off learning on my own and just applying to places that actually do predictive modeling, that can actually understand my worth?

I'm just laughing at a parallel universe where I go back to insurance and they tell me that their "predictive modeling" team requires me to have one of these credentials. Guess this works equally well as a red flag for serious candidates....

-Riley
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-30-2018, 06:11 PM
Colonel Smoothie's Avatar
Colonel Smoothie Colonel Smoothie is online now
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
College: Jamba Juice University
Favorite beer: AO Amber Ale
Posts: 49,717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoanonstop View Post
I'm just laughing at a parallel universe where I go back to insurance and they tell me that their "predictive modeling" team requires me to have one of these credentials. Guess this works equally well as a red flag for serious candidates....
I'd agree with you, but you've got to be practical, no? I'm not talking about this particular credential, but in general. I could have learned everything I learned in college on my own, yet I still got a degree - the cost of which dwarfs this credential many times over. And, you're even more degreed than I am. Sure, I'd like work at a place that doesn't care about degrees, but most places that pay the salary I want, do.

So, you've shot down the SOA's credential, but do you have the same sentiment on the rest of higher eduction? What about outsourcing any one component of your education? Maybe instead of someone who learned through books and lectures, I'd rather hire only people who developed everything from first principles independently - the purest of the pure. At what point is relying on a third party for your education acceptable, and at what point is it not?
__________________
Recommended Readings for the EL Actuary || Recommended Readings for the EB Actuary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigmeister General View Post
Don't you even think about sending me your resume. I'll turn it into an origami boulder and return it to you.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 03-30-2018, 10:53 PM
pete5383's Avatar
pete5383 pete5383 is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 23,118
Default

How much melange does one need to consume to become a Predictive Analytics Pilots?



...I'll be in my mother's basement if anyone needs me...
__________________
When the only American citizen President Trump singles out for China’s investigation is his political opponent in the midst of the Democratic nomination process, it strains credulity to suggest that it is anything other than politically motivated

Last edited by pete5383; 03-31-2018 at 12:36 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-31-2018, 01:27 AM
whoanonstop's Avatar
whoanonstop whoanonstop is offline
Member
Non-Actuary
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Studying for Spark / Scala
College: College of William and Mary
Favorite beer: Orange Juice
Posts: 5,913
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Smoothie View Post
I'd agree with you, but you've got to be practical, no? I'm not talking about this particular credential, but in general. I could have learned everything I learned in college on my own, yet I still got a degree - the cost of which dwarfs this credential many times over. And, you're even more degreed than I am. Sure, I'd like work at a place that doesn't care about degrees, but most places that pay the salary I want, do.

So, you've shot down the SOA's credential, but do you have the same sentiment on the rest of higher eduction? What about outsourcing any one component of your education? Maybe instead of someone who learned through books and lectures, I'd rather hire only people who developed everything from first principles independently - the purest of the pure. At what point is relying on a third party for your education acceptable, and at what point is it not?
First of all, you're making an assumption that the motivations for pursuing an actuarial credential or a graduate degree are one in the same. For some degrees, that may be the truth. For example, most people would likely not enroll in an MBA program unless there was some monetary gain. Likewise, I doubt people would chase actuarial credentials if they weren't guaranteed some level of pay.

Now, switch over to someone pursuing a PhD in mostly anything: Physics, Math, Computer Science, Sociology, History. Do you honestly believe for a second that the majority of these people are doing it because they think there is some exceptional pay day down the line? Hell no. They are in that PhD program because they actually have a passion for the material. Their main motivation is not a bag of money indicating "success".

There is something intrinsically different about people who want to do things because they care deeply about the underlying material and ones who are just jumping through hoops to get a company to notice them. The people who genuinely care about gaining the knowledge haven't been sitting around waiting for a credential to learn, they just started doing it on their own.

This reminds me of the thread you started talking about jobs in AI, but the entire thing revolved around salary. Sure, the people who are doing cutting-edge AI work are getting paid a lot of money, but you'd be greatly mistaken if you think that is the main reason they are doing that work.

For me, whether degrees or credentials, neither tell me if the person is capable of doing the job. However, they sure shine a lot of light on the underlying motivations of the person. Perhaps this is the reason why I look down on AS majors so much, because a larger majority of them just don't give a damn about learning. They have been motivated by some #1 jobs / salary crap. I guess I just have to get use to people having different priorities.

-Riley
__________________

Last edited by whoanonstop; 03-31-2018 at 01:30 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-31-2018, 07:07 AM
JohnLocke's Avatar
JohnLocke JohnLocke is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoanonstop View Post
First of all, you're making an assumption that the motivations for pursuing an actuarial credential or a graduate degree are one in the same. For some degrees, that may be the truth. For example, most people would likely not enroll in an MBA program unless there was some monetary gain. Likewise, I doubt people would chase actuarial credentials if they weren't guaranteed some level of pay.

Now, switch over to someone pursuing a PhD in mostly anything: Physics, Math, Computer Science, Sociology, History. Do you honestly believe for a second that the majority of these people are doing it because they think there is some exceptional pay day down the line? Hell no. They are in that PhD program because they actually have a passion for the material. Their main motivation is not a bag of money indicating "success".

There is something intrinsically different about people who want to do things because they care deeply about the underlying material and ones who are just jumping through hoops to get a company to notice them. The people who genuinely care about gaining the knowledge haven't been sitting around waiting for a credential to learn, they just started doing it on their own.

This reminds me of the thread you started talking about jobs in AI, but the entire thing revolved around salary. Sure, the people who are doing cutting-edge AI work are getting paid a lot of money, but you'd be greatly mistaken if you think that is the main reason they are doing that work.

For me, whether degrees or credentials, neither tell me if the person is capable of doing the job. However, they sure shine a lot of light on the underlying motivations of the person. Perhaps this is the reason why I look down on AS majors so much, because a larger majority of them just don't give a damn about learning. They have been motivated by some #1 jobs / salary crap. I guess I just have to get use to people having different priorities.

-Riley
Painting with a broad brush, from a probabilistic perspective, this post is right. However, there's no substitute for evaluating people on a case-by-case basis whether they are AS majors or Phds. Best to keep our broad assumptions (even if true of the population) in check when hiring individuals. I'm not implying you don't.

Credentials are a dual-edged sword. Getting credentials can also prove you are serious about something, ecspecially ones of dubious value that aren't easy to get.

Let's go back to the example earlier. (Let me guess at the motivations for someone getting this SOA PA certificate for a moment - and also keep in mind that currently it is highly unlikely that anyone will get a job or salary raise out of this this course). A participant in this course is taking an expensive and time-consuming program of uncertain and unproven value to demonstrate that they learned something or to get skills they can apply at work. I can't think of any reason why someone would do this that isn't intellectual satisfaction on some level. If the pilot really caught on, that could certainly change but as is I don't see it. But, you protest, someone could get the resources for free online. That's part of my point. It'd be insane to do this on your own dime. The price is ridiculous. In going through with it, however, you are demonstrating that you have *some* level of external validation that you know this stuff and that means enough to you that you were willing to pay a premium for it. You were willing to get this validation because it helps distinguish you. Your motivation for doing this is likely to get a different role or do different things at work that involve predictive analytics. However, that any of these end goals would have a material impact on compensation seems unlikely to me. Anyone doing this thing to make more money is probably barking up the wrong tree. Credentials are a signaling mechanism. If you earn a credential that has no economic value, you a doing it to send some kind of other signal (or are completely clueless).

Note that this argument does not work for actuarial credentials because they are reliably tied to compensation.

None of this is meant to be construed as an argument for somone to actually do/not do the program or meant to be an indication of its value. I don't know enough about it.
__________________
i always post when i'm in a shitty mood. if i didn't do that, i'd so rarely post. --AO Fan

Lucky for you I was raised by people with a good moral center because if that were not the case, you guys would be in a lot of trouble.
So be very, very glad people like me exist. Your future basically depends on it. --jas66kent

The stock market is going to go up significantly due to Trump Economics --jas66kent
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-31-2018, 01:53 PM
MathStatFin MathStatFin is offline
Member
Non-Actuary
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,703
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoanonstop View Post
First of all, you're making an assumption that the motivations for pursuing an actuarial credential or a graduate degree are one in the same. For some degrees, that may be the truth. For example, most people would likely not enroll in an MBA program unless there was some monetary gain. Likewise, I doubt people would chase actuarial credentials if they weren't guaranteed some level of pay.

Now, switch over to someone pursuing a PhD in mostly anything: Physics, Math, Computer Science, Sociology, History. Do you honestly believe for a second that the majority of these people are doing it because they think there is some exceptional pay day down the line? Hell no. They are in that PhD program because they actually have a passion for the material. Their main motivation is not a bag of money indicating "success".

There is something intrinsically different about people who want to do things because they care deeply about the underlying material and ones who are just jumping through hoops to get a company to notice them. The people who genuinely care about gaining the knowledge haven't been sitting around waiting for a credential to learn, they just started doing it on their own.

This reminds me of the thread you started talking about jobs in AI, but the entire thing revolved around salary. Sure, the people who are doing cutting-edge AI work are getting paid a lot of money, but you'd be greatly mistaken if you think that is the main reason they are doing that work.

For me, whether degrees or credentials, neither tell me if the person is capable of doing the job. However, they sure shine a lot of light on the underlying motivations of the person. Perhaps this is the reason why I look down on AS majors so much, because a larger majority of them just don't give a damn about learning. They have been motivated by some #1 jobs / salary crap. I guess I just have to get use to people having different priorities.

-Riley
Good post. You're a little harsh on the AS majors... Isn't there some data floating around showing that AS majors who quit the actuarial route end up n accounting whereas the math majors end up in software engineering or something even more technical than actuarial ? That's pretty revealing imo.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-31-2018, 01:55 PM
MathStatFin MathStatFin is offline
Member
Non-Actuary
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,703
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Smoothie View Post
I suppose there's a hazing component to it as well. People who have sacrificed years of their lives getting a PhD, actuarial credential, or even a bachelors degree or purposely not having children don't want to give a free pass to people who didn't make those sacrifices. Doesn't matter how good they are.
Sure that happens but it only happens in environments where the quality of the work isn't that consequential (skin in the game type of argument).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
data science, predictive analytics

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
*PLEASE NOTE: Posts are not checked for accuracy, and do not
represent the views of the Actuarial Outpost or its sponsors.
Page generated in 0.16806 seconds with 10 queries