Actuarial Outpost
 
Go Back   Actuarial Outpost > Actuarial Discussion Forum > Pension - Social Security
FlashChat Actuarial Discussion Preliminary Exams CAS/SOA Exams Cyberchat Around the World Suggestions


Upload your resume securely at https://www.dwsimpson.com
to be contacted when our jobs meet your skills and objectives.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 11-14-2014, 10:24 AM
Wag, the Dog Wag, the Dog is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rust belt
College: Purdue
Posts: 965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactuary View Post
(except, of course, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the smug rip off artists you allude to, along with their rent capturing allies in the investment banking and money management businesses).
buncha nobodies; what? me worry? I ACTUARY!
__________________
IANA ...
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-14-2014, 12:10 PM
MountainHawk's Avatar
MountainHawk MountainHawk is offline
Member
CAS AAA
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Salem, MA
Studying for Nothing!!!!
College: Lehigh University Alum
Favorite beer: Yuengling
Posts: 64,850
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactuary View Post
What's really sad is the pension members of ASB and many of the members of the ASB Pension Committee agree. I'm not going to bother to write comments. No one is listening (except, of course, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the smug rip off artists you allude to, along with their rent capturing allies in the investment banking and money management businesses).
Given I'm on the P&C side, it's not really my concern, but it just bothers me that pension actuaries get to besmirch the name of actuary with this total disregard for the well being of the public.
__________________

Play in the AO Prediction Game now!



1
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:19 PM
campbell's Avatar
campbell campbell is offline
Mary Pat Campbell
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NY
Studying for duolingo and coursera
Favorite beer: Murphy's Irish Stout
Posts: 82,955
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Given I'm on the P&C side, it's not really my concern, but it just bothers me that pension actuaries get to besmirch the name of actuary with this total disregard for the well being of the public.
Well, it actually is a problem.

Remember how the Equitable Life UK screw-up got fingers pointed at the entire profession in the UK?

Public pensions practice in the U.S. may be our version of Equitable Life, but even worse. Because it's not a matter of a single company and a handful of actuaries.
__________________
It's STUMP

LinkedIn Profile
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:41 PM
exactuary exactuary is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,033
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell View Post
Well, it actually is a problem.

Remember how the Equitable Life UK screw-up got fingers pointed at the entire profession in the UK?

Public pensions practice in the U.S. may be our version of Equitable Life, but even worse. Because it's not a matter of a single company and a handful of actuaries.
If I recall the story correctly, that led to the Morris report in the UK and then to CRUSAP in the US.

CRUSAP was a good piece of work (one recommendation: reduce number of US orgs) which received a lot of attention until the day it was delivered. Thenceforth, it was roundly ignored.
__________________
An exact actuary
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:56 PM
campbell's Avatar
campbell campbell is offline
Mary Pat Campbell
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NY
Studying for duolingo and coursera
Favorite beer: Murphy's Irish Stout
Posts: 82,955
Blog Entries: 6
Default

The point is that CRUSAP was an investigation done by internal parties.

The Morris review was not an internal investigation (nor were the actuaries allowed to ignore the results).

I am saying that public pension practice could lead to the profession getting a lot more external scrutiny.
__________________
It's STUMP

LinkedIn Profile
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 11-14-2014, 03:37 PM
campbell's Avatar
campbell campbell is offline
Mary Pat Campbell
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NY
Studying for duolingo and coursera
Favorite beer: Murphy's Irish Stout
Posts: 82,955
Blog Entries: 6
Default

I see there are some more letters up.
__________________
It's STUMP

LinkedIn Profile
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:08 PM
campbell's Avatar
campbell campbell is offline
Mary Pat Campbell
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NY
Studying for duolingo and coursera
Favorite beer: Murphy's Irish Stout
Posts: 82,955
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Unsurprisingly, I like Alberto's letter:

http://www.actuarialstandardsboard.o...Comment_31.pdf

Quote:
Before addressing the specific questions posed, I’d like to comment on the principle underlying my responses. It has long been my observation that the ASOPs codify a “consensus practice” or “current practice” standard, rather than a stronger “best practice” standard. Presumably, the driving force behind this is concern that a stronger standard could be used as a weapon in litigation against actuaries. I believe that ultimately such an approach is short-sighted and will not protect actuaries. If society decides that the practice codified in the ASOPs is not reasonable, then actuaries will become the targets of litigation and the defense that “we followed the ASOPs” won’t protect us. In the long run, only rigorous standards will serve as an adequate shield for our profession. This is of particular and immediate concern in the public plan arena, which is experiencing substantial and well-publicized financial stress.


......
Some public plans still use extremely outdated mortality tables such as 1951 GAM, 1971 GAM, 1983 GAM and UP 1984. It would seem that the consensus is that the use of such tables doesn’t violate ASOP 35 guidance on selecting mortality assumptions. I can think of no clearer indication that ASOP 35 is grossly inadequate.
__________________
It's STUMP

LinkedIn Profile
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:09 PM
exactuary exactuary is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,033
Default

Alberto, a former frequent AO poster, makes many important points.

Angelo's well-written letter defends familiar turf. It repeats the "we are not in charge" defense that may not hold much longer in the court of public opinion nor in various courts around the nation.

Zorn, admitting he is not a lawyer (I think he is also not an actuary), then seems to reach several legal conclusions. I think we might want to wish his firm good luck in its judicial adventures.
__________________
An exact actuary
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:12 PM
campbell's Avatar
campbell campbell is offline
Mary Pat Campbell
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NY
Studying for duolingo and coursera
Favorite beer: Murphy's Irish Stout
Posts: 82,955
Blog Entries: 6
Default

Zorn:

http://www.gabrielroeder.com/about-u...-zorndirector/

Quote:
Education

B.A., English, University of Michigan
M.A., Public Policy Studies, University of Chicago
Yeah, he's neither a lawyer nor an actuary
__________________
It's STUMP

LinkedIn Profile
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:46 PM
Wag, the Dog Wag, the Dog is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rust belt
College: Purdue
Posts: 965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell View Post
Zorn:

http://www.gabrielroeder.com/about-u...-zorndirector/



Yeah, he's neither a lawyer nor an actuary
All the more better to offer legal opinions on actuarial matters as his firm prepares its defense(s).
__________________
IANA ...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
*PLEASE NOTE: Posts are not checked for accuracy, and do not
represent the views of the Actuarial Outpost or its sponsors.
Page generated in 0.30336 seconds with 10 queries