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  #81  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:31 PM
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Whitaker: 75.1 Career WAR, 37.9 7yr Peak, 4 Seasons of 5+ WAR, Black Ink 1, Gray Ink 31, HoF Monitor 92, HoF Standard 43


Jeter: 72.4 Career WAR, 42.4 7yr Peak, 6 Seasons of 5+ WAR, Black Ink 10, Gray Ink 145, HoF Monitor 337, HoF Standard 67


Larkin: 70.4 Career WAR, 43.3 7yr Peak, 6 Seasons of 5+ WAR, Black Ink 0, Gray Ink 66, HoF Monitor 120, HoF Standard 47
I do feel Jeter is over rated. Truly a HoF player, but among the most undeserved GGs ever. Great instincts, poor range. You used Whitaker, I always felt if he and Larkin switched teams, they might also have switched reputations
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  #82  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:37 PM
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??.. count me among those whose over rated him. why do you feel that way?

'71 - 75

111-49 w-l
2.66 era
96 CG; 25 ShO
1.03 WHiP
7.7 inn per start


5 20 win seasons, led league twice
led league twice win %
led league era

end of career with Yankees wasn't good, but not something to measure a career on

Hunter better than Don Sutton comparing same era
Career ERA+ of 104. He had a very solid run 71-75 but only 3 really impressive seasons in career. Sure I’ll agree he was better than Sutton. He’s got a lot fame from the As handel bar mustache days being the first million dollar man. But I think he gets a rated quite a bit higher than he should because he played for some very, very good and also interesting teams being in Finley’s circus and the Bronx Zoo
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  #83  
Old 01-24-2019, 12:39 PM
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I do feel Jeter is over rated. Truly a HoF player, but among the most undeserved GGs ever. Great instincts, poor range. You used Whitaker, I always felt if he and Larkin switched teams, they might also have switched reputations
Jeter, great player, hall of Famer for sure, totally overrated though. Classic example of good hitter being awarded fielding award. Might have deserved at most one of those gold gloves.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:43 PM
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Jeter, great player, hall of Famer for sure, totally overrated though. Classic example of good hitter being awarded fielding award. Might have deserved at most one of those gold gloves.
will say he deserved his more than Palmiero
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:57 PM
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Career ERA+ of 104. He had a very solid run 71-75 but only 3 really impressive seasons in career. Sure I’ll agree he was better than Sutton. He’s got a lot fame from the As handel bar mustache days being the first million dollar man. But I think he gets a rated quite a bit higher than he should because he played for some very, very good and also interesting teams being in Finley’s circus and the Bronx Zoo
weak start as a young player and a poor finish, but an extremely solid middle. I more say I rate him properly for his prime. ERA+ around 129 in those prime seasons

If you ask people the best pitchers of the era, there are many names I feel people put above Hunter - Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Jenkins, Gibson & Marichal (a bit earlier), even Ryan
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:32 PM
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Jeter, great player, hall of Famer for sure, totally overrated though. Classic example of good hitter being awarded fielding award. Might have deserved at most one of those gold gloves.
Wasn't even the best shortstop on his team for several years.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:45 PM
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My comment on Jeter is that there are large groups of people that think he is one of the greatest shortstops of all time. I'm in the other group that thinks he was very overrated as a shortstop. He somehow (and we all know why) won 5 Gold Gloves and he had no range. Did he make the plays he could get to...yes. Was he the best shortstop...no.
Are there any defensive stats that measure a player’s ability to get to balls a certain distance away from where the player initially sets up, ideally controlled for how fast a ball comes off the bat? For a ball hit at X MPH that crosses Y feet away from where Jeter first set up, how frequently do shortstops make a play on the ball and actually throw the runner out? Where does Jeter stand against a typical player in a stat like that? Where does he stand against a typical Hall of Famer (recognizing that such a stat, if it exists at all, wouldn’t be available for most of baseball’s history)?

Errors are a flawed way of looking at it. If something is hit too far to the left/right of the player, I’d rather have a shortstop that makes an attempt on the ball and bobbles it (getting an error) than someone that doesn’t try for the ball and lets it heads to the outfield for a base hit. In the long run, the first player prevents more base hits. Defensive stats are still in their infancy in baseball, but I’d like to see more reliance upon them in the future.

Also, initial positioning matters too, especially for outfielders. I can imagine a situation where a right fielder that’s watched a lot of film is able to line up differently for the different batters at the plate. What might be a spectacular diving catch for someone lined up wrong could be a routine play for someone with a better starting point. Does this get quantified in any of the advanced defensive metrics?
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:55 PM
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Um, that is what is going on with these more advanced stats (i.e., not Errors). It has been determined that Jeter did not get to balls that the average SS could have.

A primer on UZR, and do note that this is a relatively recent creation, and top people scrutinize it:
https://library.fangraphs.com/defense/uzr/

And the ones he got to, well, he milked them for historic (ESPN highlight) purposes.

https://sabr.org/research/measuring-...ing-statistics

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Plus/Minus. Plus/Minus, another metric that John Dewan developed using BIS data, is designed to answer the question “How many plays did this player make above or below what an average player at his position would make?” Adam Everett, for example, had a Plus/Minus of +33 at shortstop in 2005. That is, he made 33 more plays than the average shortstop. Conversely, in 2005, Derek Jeter had a Plus/Minus of –34, despite his Gold Gloves and his reputation for making web-gem plays.
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Last edited by Dr T Non-Fan; 01-24-2019 at 02:01 PM..
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  #89  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:05 PM
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Something more recent:

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a...our-advantage/
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  #90  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:20 PM
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Older defensive metrics that are retroactively applied (such as Total Zone Runs) essentially compare the number of putouts, assists, double plays (for infielders) and baserunner advancement (for outfielders) per 9 innings and compares those figures to league averages. If you made 10% more defensive plays across your entire career, chances are you were probably a pretty good fielder. Jeter measures very poorly in these metrics.

As rudimentary as something like this sounds, when you look at the results, it does seem to rate players well who had good defensive reputations. The top 5 all-time for career Total Zone Runs are Brooks Robinson (by a huge margin), Andruw Jones, Mark Belanger, Ozzie Smith, and Roberto Clemente. All 5 are considered pretty great defenders qualitatively and were perennial Gold Glove winners.
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