Actuarial Outpost
 
Go Back   Actuarial Outpost > Actuarial Discussion Forum > Careers - Employment
FlashChat Actuarial Discussion Preliminary Exams CAS/SOA Exams Cyberchat Around the World Suggestions

Salary Surveys
Property & Casualty, Life, Health & Pension

Health Actuary Jobs
Insurance & Consulting jobs for Students, Associates & Fellows

Actuarial Recruitment
Visit DW Simpson's website for more info.
www.dwsimpson.com/about

Casualty Jobs
Property & Casualty jobs for Students, Associates & Fellows


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:12 PM
Locrian Locrian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,761
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley's Article
Dear Corinne,

Imagine a job that anyone can get just by saying "This is my new job."

That's how recruiting jobs work.
That's awesome. (Belated) Thanks for that link Westley.
__________________
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The most important thing I have learned from the career forum is that the gurus in this field and keepers of supreme knowledge regarding all matters pertaining to the actuarial profession are unlettered actuarial students with < 5 years of experience.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-03-2017, 03:49 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 27,937
Default

I'm still going to come back to this thread and do something really useful with it. But don't have time for that today. Today, I have time to whine about another clown that emailed me.

Quote:
Hi Allen,

I wanted to get in touch with you to see if you might have an opening for ... background. He has experience ...


Overview:
Actuarial ....


Specific Experiences:
....


This individual has extremely strong, technical, research, management and presentation skills.

I would greatly appreciate a response regarding this individual whether you have a current need or not.

Phil....

PS: If you are not the person responsible (or involved) in the hiring of a credentialed actuary with a P&C background, who should I add to my list? Thanks
So, basically he's especially good at... everything. Thanks for that complete lack of useful information.

I'm not worth the effort it would take to call me (ever), but you want to emphasize that I should respond regardless of whether I'm interested in your spam or not. And if I'm not hiring people, I should send you the name of the person who is. If you wanted that person's name, why not just try calling and asking for it? Why is that too much work for you?

Just really baffling how people can be so bad at this and still make money at it.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-06-2017, 03:59 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 27,937
Default

More "bad recruiter" wisdom:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan.../#1acf6b0327c4



Here are ten good reasons to give a recruiter the boot:

They reach out to you, set up a telephone call with you and then skip the call without apologizing. That's an easy goodbye!
They do not listen when you talk to them. You are nothing to them but a bundle of skills they think they can convert into cash.
They begin their first conversation with you by grilling you about your salary history -- which is none of their business, or their clients' business either. Your salary history is nobody's business but yours.
They ask you countless questions about your background -- questions that are already answered in your LinkedIn profile.
They try to get you interested in jobs that have nothing to do with your skill set or your interests.
They tell you that you're overpriced for the market when you know you are not.
They ignore you and don't return your calls. They send you on interviews and then don't give you any feedback, and then tell you "That's just the way some employers are." Wrong! A professional recruiter will get feedback for every candidate they send to a job interview -- they wouldn't dream of doing otherwise.
They treat you like a piece of lumber instead of a human being who deserves respect.
They tell you that you have to bow and scrape to do everything an employer wants you do, no matter how unreasonable the request. They want you to believe that the employer is king and you are an ant. They tell you that if the employer wants you to come in for an interview on one day's notice, you have to be there -- even if you have a big project due at work. A recruiter is supposed to be your advocate. If they can't be your advocate, you have no use or them.
You don't feel comfortable with them. That's all the reason you need to tell a recruiter "See ya!"
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-18-2017, 10:04 AM
llcooljabe's Avatar
llcooljabe llcooljabe is online now
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
I'm not sure what they can see if we're not "linked" - not sure I've paid close attention to the privacy settings or how they work. Can they see all of that regardless? Perhaps.
If they pay for a premium account they can see everything. My wife is an HR consultant. She basically does HR work for companies who are too small to have their own HR employee. This can include recruiting. She pays a thousand or 2 for a premium account, which allows her to see almost everything on people up to 3 degrees away. She's been doing this for years, so she has an extensive list of contacts. So 3 degrees for here is quite substantial. If she pays a few grand more, she can see anything on anyone's account.
__________________
www.GoodNewsNow.info
Propoganda
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-09-2017, 06:09 PM
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 27,937
Default

OK, new clown show for adding. I swear I'm going to do something interesting/useful with this thread eventually.

So, I got a call from a recruiter. Honestly, this job has many characteristics of what I would call my dream job. However, a few things are just "off". And, I'm not going to tell more than that because it's confidential.

Anyway, first thing this recruiter does is have a 30 minute conversation with me where I tell him a fair amount about who I am and what I do, and he gives me a little background on what his client company is trying to do and why; I'm totally impressed with the guy at this point because this is something most recruiters skimp on, they just don't bother to ask much in the way of who you are, what you want, etc. And he uses a lot of recruiter-speak that I find annoying, like talking about how they want to "blow up" (expand very fast) in this market, and why that makes it really important to add the right person in this position (would have about 10 direct reports in a position that would probably grow a fair amount from there) - just normal sales-pitchy-stuff.

And part of that is that, I want to understand why they think they can grow into this market so quickly and without dropping the ball on any of the key pieces - it's definitely a risk that people deal with. But of course, recruiter doesn't really understand the business, so he can't really explain this. Now, I don't fault the recruiter for not knowing how the business works - do you think the guy that does IT recruiting can program? I assure you he cannot. But, of course part of the problem is that recruiters just by their nature are very unwilling to do anything other than assure you that they know everything about everything. Again, it's just part of their nature - I know everything, I know everybody, and I know this is the right position for you so hurry up and take it so I can get my commission.

So, then I get this email. I've excerpted it only, but removed nothing that would change context nor have I changed anything (including typos), so this is pretty much what he sent.
Quote:
Allan-

(generic pleasantries removed)...

If you're interested, this not a "listen to more details" next step. The primary officers that would pre-screen you would be looking for immeasurable excitement on becoming apart of the team. They would be anxious to hear what you could do for (company name) in way of expanding the (business under discussion).

Only then, you can ask as many good questions you would like.

(more commentary on how awesome this position would be "unlimited opportunities" blah blah blah)

I look for a well-crafted letter regarding the attributes you bring: Character, high caliber Professional, Leadership, Business Developer.
~: "You need to tell these guys how excited you are about joining this company that you pretty much know nothing about because they aren't well-known and I don't know enough to explain anything".


So, of course my response was "lol no". Wasn't really that polite tbh.

Recruiter vmails me "I'm really surprised, this is such an amazing opportunity that you're passing up". Also includes a number of negative comments about my current company and how much better the new company would be (not a winning sales pitch). I pretty bluntly said "I don't have time to write a letter on how much I want to work for this company that I don't know much about". Talked a bit about how I think about such things - I'd prefer to get to know them, see if it's a fit, if it is I'm glad to talk about what I can do. The, "You should express how fortunate you are to even be talking to me" schtick is so 1980s. Next email

Quote:
Allan-

(more generic pleasantries)

(request to reconsider, as he wants to set up a phone interview asap for this great opportunity)

P. S. You are right - that was a horrible email message, completely off target. Thanks for speaking up.
Of course that the exact verbiage he's been sending for years to every candidate out there because that's his vision of what candidates should do to get him his commission.

Anyway, I don't even get to know what portion of that attitude was coming from the company versus injected by the recruiter. Doesn't matter really, but interesting for companies to consider what the message is that recruiters are putting out there for you. Honestly, I have a pretty negative view on this company now, just because of how this played out; not something they'd probably even care about but companies should do a better job of understanding how their recruiters are portraying them. I think many companies would be unhappy with what recruiters say about them when (purportedly) representing the company's interests.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-13-2017, 01:32 PM
tommie frazier tommie frazier is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Favorite beer: The kind with 2 e's
Posts: 22,977
Default

Recruiter sent me a very personal email for a position the other day.

Suppose (for the sake of example) I work for "Liberty Mutual".

Greeting was "Hello, Liberty - "

Important to note that my first name is not Liberty. Will have to follow up to learn more about this exciting opportunity. And others.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:12 PM
Patience's Avatar
Patience Patience is offline
Member
SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: a kinder, gentler place
Favorite beer: Scotch
Posts: 48,322
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommie frazier View Post
Recruiter sent me a very personal email for a position the other day.

Suppose (for the sake of example) I work for "Liberty Mutual".

Greeting was "Hello, Liberty - "

Important to note that my first name is not Liberty. Will have to follow up to learn more about this exciting opportunity. And others.
Cool, then I want to work for General American
__________________
"I've been through the desert on a horse with no name...
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain"
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:57 PM
PeppermintPatty's Avatar
PeppermintPatty PeppermintPatty is offline
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 39,758
Default

That reminds me of a piece of spam that was circling the internet a decade or so ago. It was about how consolidating your credit debt with this company would solve all your financial woes. It was addressed to "Treasury Dept" (of the United States.) "And Mr. Dept, you will never have to worry about future credit or pesky bill collectors..."
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:42 PM
Maine-iac's Avatar
Maine-iac Maine-iac is online now
Member
CAS SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: The Pine Tree State
Favorite beer: Wine
Posts: 34,976
Default

I got an ad in the mail for an insurance textbook. The pitch was addressed to "Ms. Mary Maineiac, FSA, MAAA". The salutation was "Dear Ms. Maaa:"
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-15-2017, 07:35 AM
Hedges Hedges is offline
Member
SOA
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I've been Shanghaied!
Posts: 475
Default

Clearly that textbook is something that all the sheeple should ha-a-a-a-ve.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
*PLEASE NOTE: Posts are not checked for accuracy, and do not
represent the views of the Actuarial Outpost or its sponsors.
Page generated in 0.18257 seconds with 9 queries