
#21




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2 people ahead of me had already begun a discussion of the basics using the commutation functions. I figured there was enough there that I didn't need to add to it. If she wants to check her table using a formula, harpo has her on the right path  if she just wants a doublecheck of her factors, she can PM me. The only thing I found confusing in harpo's post was his axy and axybar notations  but "$1 for life = $r while both are alive + jr$ while only spouse is alive + $1 while only member is alive" is right for a popup annuity. Seems like a helpful response overall. But you can tell me again that it's not if you want to. Last edited by Traci; 09302005 at 12:53 PM.. 
#22




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Is it also possible for you to admit that the program underlying your table could use a different formula than whatever was used to create the table that Alfies_Girl wanted to check and that by presenting her with a table that 1. differed from hers might not help her determine where the problem in her formulation was; or 2. duplicated hers might not "prove" that both tables were correct, only that they were the same? Harpo and I were trying to put forth a formula that anyone could use by a proper combination of (single, joint, and contingent) annuity functions (which, hopefully, are properly calculated; if someone else presented a commutation function arrangement, I must have missed it): 1. has anyone checked to see if either presentation is correct? 2. does your program use the same formula? a. if it does, and the formula has been verified as correct, Alfies_Girl could reasonably rely on your table to review the end work of a prior actuary. b. if it doesn't, and the formula has been verified, is the formula underlying your table also correct? or is there a possibility that one of them is wrong? Please, Traci, do not go <sarcastic> on me again, I'm just trying to follow up on something that struck me as a response that was confusing, and now I'm so screwed up that I'm wondering if my program is correct.
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"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in "We created an environment where we didn't know what we were doing, but it was legal and making profits."(Bill Sharon, chief executive of Sorms) "As soon as we solve one problem, another one appears. So let's try to keep this one going for as long as possible." (Pepper...and Salt, WSJ, 5/4/2011) 
#23




I'm sorry. I've been meaning to check the algebra but I've been too busy at work this week (and my actuarial math books are at the office). I'll try to make some time next week to check the formula.
In the meantime, though, I would recommend the practical approach. If you have some J&S factors  either optional form conversion factors or annuity factors  try to match them using the various ax's and ay's etc. If you can match a handful, you may feel comfortable applying your formula more generally, even if its validity has not been proven algebraically.
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If I weren't out here every day battling the white man, I could spend the rest of my life reading, just satisfying my curiosity—because you can hardly mention anything I'm not curious about. — Malcolm X 
#24




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I've spent enough time in this thread already that I should have just looked up the formulas for you by now to shut you up  but I think harpo's got it right  oops, I already said that. 
#25




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__________________
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in "We created an environment where we didn't know what we were doing, but it was legal and making profits."(Bill Sharon, chief executive of Sorms) "As soon as we solve one problem, another one appears. So let's try to keep this one going for as long as possible." (Pepper...and Salt, WSJ, 5/4/2011) 
#26




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Fuzz  I got irritated with you in this thread because of the post that contained " ... If you wish to respond to the question, please provide your formula ..." We don't have to relive it  but you may wish to consider it for future reference. 
#27




Popup Factors
Alfie Girl  I was just trying to give you a few ideas off the top of my head that I thought might be helpful (sorry if you found it confusing). Given the way I defined the terms, I believe the formulas to be correct. If you have further questions, I'd be glad to assist. Just let know.
Traci  "Harpo was just trying to be helpful  that he may have been confused about the terminology doesn't mean that the rest of us are. If he was, I'd guess he's relatively new to the field." Thank you. I always knew I liked you. For what its worth, I'm and EA, FSA with 15 years experience (and a "He"). 2 kids, 2 dogs, 2 guinea pigs, 2 wives (oops no, only 1 wife). : ) Fuzzy  Thanks (I think) for your thoughtful consideration. 
#28




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That doesn't mean that some of the other formulas aren't also correct.
__________________
If I weren't out here every day battling the white man, I could spend the rest of my life reading, just satisfying my curiosity—because you can hardly mention anything I'm not curious about. — Malcolm X 
#29




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Harpo, do you have anything to add about the original expression definitions that apparently screwed me up in the first place? I do appreciate your initial involvement because it got me thinking about the formula, I just regret the tack things took when I got into the "confusing" discussion(s).
__________________
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in "We created an environment where we didn't know what we were doing, but it was legal and making profits."(Bill Sharon, chief executive of Sorms) "As soon as we solve one problem, another one appears. So let's try to keep this one going for as long as possible." (Pepper...and Salt, WSJ, 5/4/2011) 
#30




pop up factors
Fuzzy,
I have a few plans that have popup benefits. In those plans, the 50%JS popup works as follows: Normal form  life annuity $1,000/ mo 50%JS Popup  $900/ mo In this case, the popup would pay $900/mo while both member and beneficiary are alive $450/mo if only the beneficiary is alive (after member's death) $1,000/mo if only the member is alive (pops up to $1,000 if beneficiary dies before the member) Whatever terminology is used, it comes down to 1000*D = 900*A + 450*B + 1000*C where A = factor while both alive B = factor while only beneficiary is alive C = factor while only member is alive D = life annuity to member (regardless of beneficiary) As I said, sorry if my initial terminology was confusing. I was just trying to illustrate generally how to do it. Regards. 
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