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  #51  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:05 PM
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JohnLocke JohnLocke is offline
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Originally Posted by TZK View Post
This might get you pretty far in life, but know this. You will always be asking someone to give you something, and at the end of that giving chain will always be someone like me. Only system thinkers create things in this world.
I doubt it.
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  #52  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:12 PM
Hachover Hachover is offline
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Most people just don't realize that they don't understand nearly as much as they drink.
IFYP

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  #53  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TZK View Post
If you actually believed you were justified in name-calling, you would just present the justification instead. You didn't, which means you don't believe you have a real argument, and why should anyone listen to you when you don't even believe yourself?
Sorry, here is the justification

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Originally Posted by TZK
There seems to be different ways that people apply intelligence. Some people have high IQ's but are not what you would call "systems thinkers". They use their brainpower to learn how to "persuade" other people without really having a clear understanding of what they are talking about. That is, they don't really have a systematic understanding of the world around them or the people in it.

I find that whenever I deal with other people, these qualities that I have can not be hidden. It is not a matter of tact or anything so simple. Even just gaging the subconscious controlled factors of my demeanor causes people to recognize this. Interviewers expect candidates to be nervous to some degree and unsure of themselves as they are in a new situation. This does not mean that they will stutter or provide poor answers. It just means they might catch a bead of sweat, posture a certain way, or the person will respond to them in a certain way as if they are waiting for a cue from the interviewer to try and say the right thing. These are things that the interviewer may not even recognize consciously, but makes them feel a certain way when they pick them up out of the corner of their eye.

This no doubt provides some sort of comfort to them. I feel that when I interview with people that the interviewer is often intimidated. This seems to put them in defensive mode without me having done anything. It is like the interviewer questions their own self worth just looking at me. I know this would not be an issue with other systems thinkers or people with high self esteem, but such people seem to be limited to the highest positions in a company.

It would seem you could just talk someone into being comfortable with you if this were the case, but it doesn't work that way. People often hide what they think as if they are afraid they would look stupid if their belief was shown false. I once had a conversation with a lady interviewing me about giving speeches on actuarial findings. Every few seconds I would stop to think about how to put what I was saying so that it would be the most convincing and objective argument. She made a face as if she thought that needing to think about what you were saying was a poor quality for a speech giver to have. I said that I find speeches work the best when I write the speech and memorize it. She responded that she had to do the same thing as well and quickly moved on.

In order to form an argument that is both logical and convincing you must take time to form it. It is easy to form specious arguments that have no logical value at the drop of a hat, but this doesn't accomplish anything - someone could do the same for the opposing point of view. This is especially true if you are giving a speech on something important or discussing complex issues. It is easier to destroy understanding than it is to create it. I felt like I was having to bend over backwards to deduce what this lady might be thinking that would cause her to misinterpret my answers.

I find that interviewers have all kinds of backwards views on things that determine how they interpret behavior and arguments. They hide these beliefs to prevent you from disproving them so you can come to an understanding. This in of itself is a poorly reasoned type of behavior. Objective truth is only determined by the confrontation of ideas. If the interviewer naturally liked you, they might be more open minded (although they still would be judgmental based on some silly beliefs they were sensitive about)

However it seems being above average in any area that people didn't feel was a matter of choice causes people to not like you regardless of what you do. It is like your existence automatically challenges their sense of fairness and they consider you an enemy.

I luckily found a job through a family friend who was a high level, systems thinker in another company. If it wasn't for this person, I am not sure I would have ever found a job. Has anyone else faced these kinds of problems and what have you done to overcome them? I may need to move jobs soon (Department closing) which means interviewing all over again. I am not looking forward to it.
If you can't tell from rereading your initial post why I think you are a douche bag then I don't think I would be able to clear it up for you.
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:15 PM
A Student A Student is offline
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Originally Posted by TZK View Post
This might get you pretty far in life, but know this. You will always be asking someone to give you something, and at the end of that giving chain will always be someone like me. Only system thinkers create things in this world.
Can we get MTS in this thread please!

If BS is immoral, I look forward to meeting so many people from the AO in Hades. (And I mean that in the nicest way possible.)
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  #55  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:17 PM
TZK TZK is offline
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Originally Posted by mexx View Post
The bolded part certainly ain't true!!

As an aside .. I didn't claim to know something you didn't - in fact, I'm sure you (and lots of other people) are smarter than me. Smarts only gets you so far - if you cannot relate to others and adjust your behaviour to what is appropriate in that particular situation, you will not get very far in any field that involves interaction.
Average is not meant to be derogatory there. For instance, attractiveness has been identified by some to be the averageness of the physical features of your face. This way you remind people of the most amount of good experiences they have had with others. But more directly what I meant was that you come across as "one of the guys". Simply being different is enough to cause people to reject you. This has been proven throughout history, and fundamental differences in how a person thinks are just as capable of causing this reaction as is the color of a person's skin.

What is appropriate is the real issue here. Appropriateness isn't determined by mob rule - it's determined by "smarts".

"Smarts" are good for dealing with real world problems and creating effective plans of action. The money that a person is paid is not given to them because their boss likes them. If that boss had a choice, he'd keep more of the money for himself. The money is given because you are supposed to provide a service as an employee. The money comes from the company providing a good or service to it's customers. To figure out the best way to do this, a company needs smarts above all else.

If you need to solve a real world problem and there is a conflict of interest between putting someone at ease and being able to solve this problem, you choose solving the problem. That is what is appropriate.

I can't change the way I am, and the reason I can't change it is because it is the right way to be. People can see that my instincts are different by gaging my emotional reactions. My instincts are different because it has been proven to me that the way I think is correct.
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  #56  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:17 PM
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Bob the Nob Bob the Nob is offline
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Originally Posted by TZK View Post
People here will lie, cheat, and steal to avoid admitting they are wrong about something.
Alright, which one of you has been stealing in order to avoid admitting you are wrong???
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  #57  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:21 PM
TZK TZK is offline
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Originally Posted by campbell View Post
This is very true.

You may want to think on that for a while.
I already have. Only after that can you start to identify what types of arguments are true and also how you can always check to make sure you don't go down that path again.
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  #58  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:22 PM
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Qisoneminusp Qisoneminusp is offline
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This is very true.

You may want to think on that for a while.
campbell = yoda!
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Why so serious?
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  #59  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:22 PM
MooBeay MooBeay is offline
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Originally Posted by TZK View Post
Humor is reserved for people that respect each other. If I expected you to play fairly I would see the humor in it. My experience though is that certain people on this board will just make things up even if you didn't put a typo in your thread title. People here will lie, cheat, and steal to avoid admitting they are wrong about something.

Which you are doing by trying to say it wasn't a typo when it was...
Much like you are doing now.
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  #60  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:25 PM
TZK TZK is offline
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Originally Posted by Quasi View Post
If you can't tell from rereading your initial post why I think you are a douche bag then I don't think I would be able to clear it up for you.
You wouldn't be able to clear it up because you don't know what the heck you are talking about.
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