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  #51  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:41 PM
Dr T Non-Fan Dr T Non-Fan is online now
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That thread probably has this advice:

1. Keep a list of companies you have applied to on your own, and DO NOT LET YOUR RECRUITER SEND YOUR RESUME THERE!! Crazily enough, they do not have special powers that will get you the interview over your own effort. YOU keep on these companies' asses. Call a different one every day. make notes of when you call, to whom you spoke. If you're e-mailing, keep a log of those, too.
2. Keep a list of companies that your recruiters have sent, a list for each of them (if you have more than one). DO NOT LET THEM CROSS THE STREAMS!!!! I.e., Recruiter A sends your resume to a company on your Recruiter B's list. You will get dumped, because the company won't want to get into the tiff about the commission. They will not want to split, and the company will not want to pay double.
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  #52  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
...I would 100% skip the recruiter and market yourself to any companies that you have your own connections to. If you don't have connections and you're just firing in a resume on a website or whatever, it's not so obvious which is best, but definitely I would rather market myself than have somebody else marketing me. YMMV

If they're hiring, and they want to hire you, you'll hear from them. Even when I was less into doing my own marketing, I always viewed recruiters as important for companies that I can't find on my own. Again, YMMV...
This. If you found the opening on your own and applied for it, you get bonus points over the resume that came in from a recruiter. Recruiters are good at finding stuff you might not know about, but they don't do any magic to make the hiring manager look at your resume.
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  #53  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:34 PM
clarinetist clarinetist is offline
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Did they explain why they cannot do that? I don't think that's generally true.
Recruiters have told me this in the past.

The explanation is that since the company already has your resume, recruiters don't add anything since said company has already vetted your resume or is going to (independent of the recruiter).
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  #54  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:30 AM
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I'll try to reply to everyone's comments in a single post so people have a better context of my situation. Again, really appreciate all the replies!!

-I currently have almost 3 years of experience, 6 exams passed (maybe 7) and I'm just not getting any replies from companies I applied through the company website.

-recruiters basically just tell me they can't apply to the same companies since there will be duplicates and their connection won't have any impact.

-I'm not entirely sure why I would get bonus point if I apply myself and I can't even get interviews. From what I've heard from people who used recruiters, they've gotten more interviews in general.

Last edited by jominican; 11-29-2018 at 01:46 AM..
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  #55  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:00 AM
hjacjswo hjacjswo is offline
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3 weeks is way too short. Have some patience. Last week was thanksgiving. Also its the end of the year so theres a good chance you wont hear from them until next year.

Recruiters will ALWAYSSS tell you that applying through them is better than applying on the website regardless of whether thats true.

No neec to think about 6 months ahead when you are only 3 weeks in
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  #56  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarinetist View Post
Recruiters have told me this in the past.
Well, recruiters have told me a lot of things in the past. Some of it was even true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarinetist View Post
The explanation is that since the company already has your resume, recruiters don't add anything since said company has already vetted your resume or is going to (independent of the recruiter).
That's an interesting comment - basically the recruiter is saying that the only value that they provide is getting your resume into the company. Doesn't sound like a very valuable recruiter to me.

In many situations, I would agree with this recruiter that the only value they provide is getting the resume into the company, but most recruiters will try to convince you that they add lots of value as an advocate for the candidate, by having connections within the company where they can explain your unique situation to get you in front of the correct people, etc (this is also true in many situations, but not as many as recruiters would have you believe).



Quote:
Originally Posted by jominican View Post
-I currently have almost 3 years of experience, 6 exams passed (maybe 7) and I'm just not getting any replies from companies I applied through the company website.
That's a very sweet spot for most companies - if you don't have glaring problems like citizenship, geography, etc I would expect lots of interest. If it's literally been three weeks, I think it's as simple as Thanksgiving and year-end. Not sure what LOB you're in but if it's something that has a busy season, consider that as well. Three weeks is no time at all. But I'd start reaching out to those companies directly if you can.

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Originally Posted by jominican View Post
-recruiters basically just tell me they can't apply to the same companies since there will be duplicates and their connection won't have any impact.
Well, if their connection consists of "I have an email address of a person there that I spam sometimes" that's certainly true. If they know a bunch of people there, they can still call and see if there's a connection to be made. Especially if it's a big company, your resume might be on the desk of somebody whose needs aren't a match in terms of LOB, experience, whatever, while somebody six buildings away needs exactly what you have and has never heard of you. A good recruiter would have some interest in making that connection IMO.

As an example, there's a (very low-quality) recruiter that I've never spoken to who spams me resumes on a regular basis (also, his "click here to be removed from my spamming" actually removes you from JUST THAT ONE EMAIL STRING rather than all of their spam, but that's a diatribe I won't subject you to) - since his entire value is a spam list and nothing else, of course he can't do anything. If he had ever contacted me and knew anything at all about what I'm doing, it could be a different situation completely (in my specific situation it wouldn't matter, since I effectively run all things actuarial here - so I'd have already seen your resume).

Regardless, if they can't connect you to those companies, what can they connect you to? Did you ask? What did they say? If they're any good at all, surely they know many more companies than you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jominican View Post
-I'm not entirely sure why I would get bonus point if I apply myself and I can't even get interviews. From what I've heard from people who used recruiters, they've gotten more interviews in general.
The companies will usually view it favorably that they can hire you without paying a recruiter fee. That doesn't mean that they'll interrupt their Thanksgiving dinner to conduct an interview. Not sure on the exact timing, so I'm having trouble figuring out if the problem is simply your impatience and unreasonable expectations as to response time, or if there's something else going on.

Certainly, a good recruiter can get lots of interviews. Not sure they can do it on the timeline you're looking for. Hard to say. I'd say plug ahead with a recruiter, but don't be afraid to continue sending resumes on your own. If this recruiter doesn't want to work with you as a result, just go find one who will.
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  #57  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:48 AM
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My experience with external recruiters is somewhat stale, as I haven't worked with one in a long time. I had a spell where I didn't hire (except entry level) and currently, my employer only uses internal recruiters -- employees who serve a lot of the same functions external recruiters do, but who are paid a salary rather than a fee per placement. But back in the day, I'd say a very large fraction of the value of the recruiter was finding viable resumes. Yes, they also gave a more "full color" description of the candidates, based on having spoken with them, and they helped negotiate both administrative details like "when can we talk" and more substantive details like "how much should we offer", but mostly we used recruiters to get people in the door.

We wouldn't have paid a recruiter's fee for a person whose resume we already had. Thus, I assume no recruiter would want to do much work for such a person. I would guess that is what you are running into.

I suppose that's why we have moved to the all-internal-recruiter model. Now that companies can post their jobs on somewhat searchable web-sites, they don't need recruiters as much. And our internal recruiters do keep lists of people they've met at meetings, or find on LinkedIn, and send them information about appropriate openings.

For a "why finding those resumes is worth so much" story, we tried posting jobs on the CAS website (few responses) and on generic job sites like monster (hundreds of responses that were obviously unqualified based on the resume) and really didn't have any luck. When we went through recruiters we found qualified candidates to interview.

But I agree with Westley, three weeks that include Thanksgiving is not a lot of time. Try waiting longer, and perhaps send some follow-up emails.
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  #58  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:51 AM
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Also, yeah, you are the kind of candidate I expect to find via a recruiter, internal or external. But if I were hiring and got a suitable cold resume, I'd be thrilled, and toss it in the pile. And resumes do filter up from that web portal to the hiring manager. In my case, they pass through the internal recruiter first. When we used external recruiters, we still had an HR rep who did the initial screen to find the suitable resumes. But she would have passed along anyone with exams and experience and US work authorization if I were trying to fill that sort of job.
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  #59  
Old 11-29-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarinetist View Post
Recruiters have told me this in the past.

The explanation is that since the company already has your resume, recruiters don't add anything since said company has already vetted your resume or is going to (independent of the recruiter).
I'm sure that's what you have been told, Mr Reed, but as others have said, that's a lousy marketing message the recruiter is sending about their skills and connections (true or not).

I think the explanation is that if the company already has your resume then there's a good chance the recruiter will not be getting their commission, and they do not want to work for you for free. As DTNF and others have said: Follow the money.
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  #60  
Old 11-29-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PeppermintPatty View Post
This. If you found the opening on your own and applied for it, you get bonus points over the resume that came in from a recruiter. Recruiters are good at finding stuff you might not know about, but they don't do any magic to make the hiring manager look at your resume.
Sir, I'm trying to reconcile this post with your later statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeppermintPatty View Post
...But back in the day, I'd say a very large fraction of the value of the recruiter was finding viable resumes. Yes, they also gave a more "full color" description of the candidates, based on having spoken with them, and they helped negotiate both administrative details like "when can we talk" and more substantive details like "how much should we offer", but mostly we used recruiters to get people in the door.
...
For a "why finding those resumes is worth so much" story, we tried posting jobs on the CAS website (few responses) and on generic job sites like monster (hundreds of responses that were obviously unqualified based on the resume) and really didn't have any luck. When we went through recruiters we found qualified candidates to interview.
It seems based on this that a recruiter could serve a valuable function of vetting resumes to match specific candidates and positions, similar to how insurance agents sometimes serve as "front-line underwriters." In geekier terms, I would think that the Bayesian prior assumption of the probability that a resume would pique a hiring manager's interest would be higher if presented by a recruiter rather than simply received through the company's website.

Or is there a distinction between a recruiter engaged by the candidate versus by the company?

Disclosure: I have never worked directly with a(n external) recruiter on either side of the hiring process.
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