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  #21  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:04 PM
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Westley Westley is offline
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Originally Posted by Catholibertarian95 View Post
If I can do the same work more quickly and for the same pay
OK, he literally just said, in the post that you quoted, that this is not relevant for an intern. And then he explained why. Not sure if you didn't understand or you aren't even bothering to read.

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Originally Posted by Catholibertarian95 View Post
also have the option open to become a full-time employee (as well as the option to not if my performance is poor), then what's the downside? It just seems like a win-win.
Most internships are related to funneling people into the full-time hire pool. If they believe you're of the quality - primarily based on grades, exams, and interpersonal skills - that they want to hire you for a full-time position, then they'd just hire you into a full-time position. If you're not considered to be that quality of a hire, then putting you into the funnel is really stupid.
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:07 PM
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just like there are different qualities of students, there are different qualities of jobs.

with your possible resume (2 exams, low GPA, no internship) you likely will get screened out by most of the top employers. But there are still lots of places that will still consider you. Having a sub par resume just means you have to be clever and work harder to get interviews. The first job you get may very well be a stepping stone to something more desirable in a few years.

its an uphill battle. I was a 1 exam, 3.0, no internship candidate once upon a time. I only got 2 interviews after 8 months of searching after graduation. My first actuarial job was at a bottom of the barrel employer. I grinded it out for a few years, passed some more exams, and eventually landed a good job at a major insurer.
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  #23  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:11 PM
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Abelian Grape Abelian Grape is offline
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It's the combination of not having a lot of free time and that I hate studying (in general terms).
This will still be an issue while working full-time, even with exam support from the employer.
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  #24  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:14 PM
Catholibertarian95 Catholibertarian95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
OK, he literally just said, in the post that you quoted, that this is not relevant for an intern. And then he explained why. Not sure if you didn't understand or you aren't even bothering to read.



Most internships are related to funneling people into the full-time hire pool. If they believe you're of the quality - primarily based on grades, exams, and interpersonal skills - that they want to hire you for a full-time position, then they'd just hire you into a full-time position. If you're not considered to be that quality of a hire, then putting you into the funnel is really stupid.


Why is putting that person in the funnel stupid? Isn't a graduate with no experience equaly worthy of being put in the pool as a junior or senior with the same resume? Is it just because it's a stigma in the business world to graduate without experience? I'm not trying to argue, i'm just trying to understand.

Again, nobody has told me about this stuff. They just told me to pass exams before I graduate.
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  #25  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:15 PM
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But that's the past. What should I do now?
Honestly, I think you should look for something else. I say this because if you're in a half-decent actuarial program, you should be pretty much locked in to pass the first couple of exams with essentially no effort at all. I'm far removed from the exam process, but I think that's still the case - exam P should just be:
Step 1, take the appropriate classes, which are part of your major
Step 2, spend a couple hours prepping, just to make sure you understand the format and such
Step 3, pass easily

FM slightly more effort. If you didn't get there after four years (I'm assuming you're fourth year graduating in 4.5, but don't think you explicitly said that), you're not going to get through the whole process, which only gets harder.

Anyway, if you still want to be an actuary, I think you need to give an internship a shot, even though your odds are low. I mean, Allstate or PwC or Prudential - not even worth sending in your resume; but if you can find some small local companies that maybe don't have a formal internship program and maybe you have some connection through alum or something, maybe you have a shot at convincing somebody to take a chance.

And whether that happens or not, passing an exam ASAP is absolutely necessary. People still get jobs with one exam and no internship. The problem from my vantage point is, you really don't have a good reason for why you have no exams and no internship. Hiring is a bet on people, and that bet is primarily made on "Look at his past record of success, he'll probably succeed here", a claim which you can't currently make. Hiring is also a game of "I like that guy, let's give him a shot", so also make sure when you do get an interview you are ready to crush it.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:17 PM
Catholibertarian95 Catholibertarian95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Abelian Grape View Post
This will still be an issue while working full-time, even with exam support from the employer.


True, although I will definitely say that my semesters as a student is much more time consuming than my Summers where i'm only working

full-time classes + part-time work + extra-curriculars > 40 hours/week
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  #27  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:24 PM
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Westley Westley is offline
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Isn't a graduate with no experience equaly worthy of being put in the pool as a junior or senior with the same resume? Is it just because it's a stigma in the business world to graduate without experience? I'm not trying to argue, i'm just trying to understand.
No, not equally worthy.

First, I'm assuming you have a couple of exams, which you don't yet. But at the point that you're out of school with two exams passed and a low GPA and I'm interviewing you, you have these black marks:

1 low GPA
2 took longer than normal to get the two exams
3 didn't do the right research to realize what he should have been doing during his junior and senior years
4 couldn't find a way to overcome these problems before interviewing with me

And a junior comes along that passed an exam as a sophomore and another as a junior, great grades, etc - it's just a safe bet.

I'll use a sports analogy: you're the guy who scored 700 points in your four-year career at tOSU, asking why I am considering drafting Malik Monk ahead of you, when he only scored 600 points in his one season at Kentucky. Your 700 points just isn't impressing me. Not saying you can't overcome it, but I'll take that guy that has done nothing but impress his entire time.
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  #28  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:25 PM
Catholibertarian95 Catholibertarian95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Honestly, I think you should look for something else. I say this because if you're in a half-decent actuarial program, you should be pretty much locked in to pass the first couple of exams with essentially no effort at all. I'm far removed from the exam process, but I think that's still the case - exam P should just be:
Step 1, take the appropriate classes, which are part of your major
Step 2, spend a couple hours prepping, just to make sure you understand the format and such
Step 3, pass easily

FM slightly more effort. If you didn't get there after four years (I'm assuming you're fourth year graduating in 4.5, but don't think you explicitly said that), you're not going to get through the whole process, which only gets harder.

Anyway, if you still want to be an actuary, I think you need to give an internship a shot, even though your odds are low. I mean, Allstate or PwC or Prudential - not even worth sending in your resume; but if you can find some small local companies that maybe don't have a formal internship program and maybe you have some connection through alum or something, maybe you have a shot at convincing somebody to take a chance.



And whether that happens or not, passing an exam ASAP is absolutely necessary. People still get jobs with one exam and no internship. The problem from my vantage point is, you really don't have a good reason for why you have no exams and no internship. Hiring is a bet on people, and that bet is primarily made on "Look at his past record of success, he'll probably succeed here", a claim which you can't currently make. Hiring is also a game of "I like that guy, let's give him a shot", so also make sure when you do get an interview you are ready to crush it.


Thanks for the reply. Not sure if it's my university or if it's me, but the classes corresponding to exams (FM and P) don't cover the entire exam syllabus. I had a professor who even told us that we wouldn't cover x y and z and to study it on my own (he also gives an automatic A if you passed FM during the semester). Yeah, the classes had a good chunck of material, and laid a good foundation, but even getting an A won't make the actual exam a breeze.

I am definitely open to working at a smaller company, even in a psuedo-actuarial role. I definitely don't deserve an awesome job thrown onto my lap, so i'm willing to work up to that. That's why I was asking about post-graduate interships, but it seems like that's not a thing.


I guess I can also put myself in the seat of someone who graduated with a degree in math (or anything really), who can't find work, and then decides to start taking exams and become an actuary. They would also lack internship experience, as well as having an emplpyment gap. People work their way into the field, so it's possible for me right?
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:27 PM
Catholibertarian95 Catholibertarian95 is offline
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Originally Posted by Westley View Post
No, not equally worthy.

First, I'm assuming you have a couple of exams, which you don't yet. But at the point that you're out of school with two exams passed and a low GPA and I'm interviewing you, you have these black marks:

1 low GPA
2 took longer than normal to get the two exams
3 didn't do the right research to realize what he should have been doing during his junior and senior years
4 couldn't find a way to overcome these problems before interviewing with me

And a junior comes along that passed an exam as a sophomore and another as a junior, great grades, etc - it's just a safe bet.

I'll use a sports analogy: you're the guy who scored 700 points in your four-year career at tOSU, asking why I am considering drafting Malik Monk ahead of you, when he only scored 600 points in his one season at Kentucky. Your 700 points just isn't impressing me. Not saying you can't overcome it, but I'll take that guy that has done nothing but impress his entire time.


Ok, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining that. So it's less a about qualification and more about how they are projected to be in the future.
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:31 PM
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Westley Westley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholibertarian95 View Post
People work their way into the field, so it's possible for me right?
Pass exams, spam resumes everywhere, you will get som interviews.
Perform well in interviews, you will get hired.


It's not really more complicated than that, unless you're picky about geography, type of company, etc.
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