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  #41  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:22 PM
kmbrunskill kmbrunskill is offline
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My rationale was that for 2H if I have a junky 11 count and I open 1C, do I really want to be playing 2NT across length in diamonds and potentially only 10-11 points? 2H should at least show a reasonable opener no? By extras I mean like it should show a good 12 or 13. I'm willing to be wrong here. Am I wrong?

About 3D. You're right. I got mixed up. I don't play with partners who often will make that bid where rebidding the suit shows length and a smaller hand. In fact I may never have actually seen it done!

I like 2S too. I think you're right. But does it create a game force? Its definitely at least 1 round forcing. But what if you hold a flat and boring 10-11 count with 4 spades? I'd still want to say 2S. Thinking from a bidding theory point of view, opener can still settle at 2NT in the worst case. Again I'm willing to be wrong here, am I?
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:23 PM
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Your partner opened, and you're holding 17 points - should be at least in game somewhere. I would bid 2S asking partner to bid NT with a spade stopper, and then raise 2N to 4N, and 3N to 6N. If partner doesn't have a spade stopper, then your partnership is holding all the picture cards in the other 3 suits, and you should end up in 5 or 6 or either minor, depending on how many spade cards your partner has.
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  #43  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:35 PM
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Sweet, my rambling was on point for once
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:31 PM
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In the auction 1C - (1S) - 2D, opener is required to bid. If he has 2=4=3=4 shape, he almost always will bid 2H, especially without a spade stopper. It actually only gets tricky when he has no heart suit, no spade stopper, clubs which aren't rebiddable, and no diamond support. 2S is never natural when the opponents have overcalled in that suit. Picture:
8752
AK4
K4
Q542

A 2H bid can be weak or strong, but is always natural. It could be 18:
85
AKJ4
KJ3
KQJ2

or it could be 12:
J85
KJ42
K8
KJ52

2NT shows a spade stop. It generally denies four hearts, but I suppose you could have:
AQ3
7542
53
KQJ3

If you actually have a spade suit, so what? You're never going to play in spades after the overcall, so 2S should never be natural.

If you have a "flat and boring 10-11 count", don't open the bidding!

In any event, the 2D bidder must bid again, so it often is best to prioritize showing hand type here.

As for 2S being a game force, I advocate having simple rules. You can always come up with examples where you want a bid to mean something different, but by having simple rules, you will come out ahead in the long run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kmbrunskill View Post
My rationale was that for 2H if I have a junky 11 count and I open 1C, do I really want to be playing 2NT across length in diamonds and potentially only 10-11 points? 2H should at least show a reasonable opener no? By extras I mean like it should show a good 12 or 13. I'm willing to be wrong here. Am I wrong?

About 3D. You're right. I got mixed up. I don't play with partners who often will make that bid where rebidding the suit shows length and a smaller hand. In fact I may never have actually seen it done!

I like 2S too. I think you're right. But does it create a game force? Its definitely at least 1 round forcing. But what if you hold a flat and boring 10-11 count with 4 spades? I'd still want to say 2S. Thinking from a bidding theory point of view, opener can still settle at 2NT in the worst case. Again I'm willing to be wrong here, am I?
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:02 PM
Klaymen Klaymen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmbrunskill View Post
I like 2S too. I think you're right. But does it create a game force? Its definitely at least 1 round forcing. But what if you hold a flat and boring 10-11 count with 4 spades? I'd still want to say 2S. Thinking from a bidding theory point of view, opener can still settle at 2NT in the worst case. Again I'm willing to be wrong here, am I?
2NT would show the boring 10-11 count with 4 spades, and therefore 2S should be game-forcing.
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:34 PM
kmbrunskill kmbrunskill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaymen View Post
2NT would show the boring 10-11 count with 4 spades, and therefore 2S should be game-forcing.
Got it. That makes sense
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:35 PM
kmbrunskill kmbrunskill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers Nerd View Post
In the auction 1C - (1S) - 2D, opener is required to bid. If he has 2=4=3=4 shape, he almost always will bid 2H, especially without a spade stopper. It actually only gets tricky when he has no heart suit, no spade stopper, clubs which aren't rebiddable, and no diamond support. 2S is never natural when the opponents have overcalled in that suit. Picture:
8752
AK4
K4
Q542

A 2H bid can be weak or strong, but is always natural. It could be 18:
85
AKJ4
KJ3
KQJ2

or it could be 12:
J85
KJ42
K8
KJ52

2NT shows a spade stop. It generally denies four hearts, but I suppose you could have:
AQ3
7542
53
KQJ3

If you actually have a spade suit, so what? You're never going to play in spades after the overcall, so 2S should never be natural.

If you have a "flat and boring 10-11 count", don't open the bidding!

In any event, the 2D bidder must bid again, so it often is best to prioritize showing hand type here.

As for 2S being a game force, I advocate having simple rules. You can always come up with examples where you want a bid to mean something different, but by having simple rules, you will come out ahead in the long run.
I forgot that in my own example, they had bid 1S.

You are completely right and I am wrong.

Makes total sense. Thanks! I feel silly now.
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:06 PM
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E. Blackadder E. Blackadder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers Nerd View Post

A 2H bid can be weak or strong, but is always natural. It could be 18:
85
AKJ4
KJ3
KQJ2

or it could be 12:
J85
KJ42
K8
KJ52


If you actually have a spade suit, so what? You're never going to play in spades after the overcall, so 2S should never be natural.

If you have a "flat and boring 10-11 count", don't open the bidding! I wish I didn't have this issue. -EB

In any event, the 2D bidder must bid again, so it often is best to prioritize showing hand type here.

As for 2S being a game force, I advocate having simple rules. You can always come up with examples where you want a bid to mean something different, but by having simple rules, you will come out ahead in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmbrunskill View Post
I forgot that in my own example, they had bid 1S.

You are completely right and I am wrong.

Makes total sense. Thanks! I feel silly now.
There's a problem: the auction 1 - (1) - 2 is a one-round force on opener, and does not promise a rebid. Opener should bid the full value of his hand.
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  #49  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:08 AM
kmbrunskill kmbrunskill is offline
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Well, to defend myself a little bit, the flat and boring 10 count was in reference to the responder, not the opener!

EB, I don't understand your example. Care to explain further?
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  #50  
Old 09-15-2017, 06:59 AM
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E. Blackadder E. Blackadder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmbrunskill View Post
Well, to defend myself a little bit, the flat and boring 10 count was in reference to the responder, not the opener!

EB, I don't understand your example. Care to explain further?
Not until I understand what isn't making sense.
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EB's rules for AO political: 1. A responder who replies "who cares?", cares deeply. 1a. a responder who replies LMAO, or similar, agrees with me. 2. It's always funnier when EB says it. - Lucy (Whomever she was) 3. Don't assume I'm trying to convince you, or indeed, any Hillary or Bernie supporter. 4. If my posts are so blatantly wrong, why are you so insistent in following me? I'll not take you home! 5. I'm not happy until you're not happy. 6. "You sir are no racist. You seem to condescend to everyone equally. I salute you." - Rain in Africa.

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