Actuarial Outpost
 
Go Back   Actuarial Outpost > Actuarial Discussion Forum > Careers - Employment
FlashChat Actuarial Discussion Preliminary Exams CAS/SOA Exams Cyberchat Around the World Suggestions

DW Simpson Global Actuarial & Analytics Recruitment
Download our Actuarial Salary Survey
now with state-by-state salary information!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-06-2007, 12:46 PM
ldancer911's Avatar
ldancer911 ldancer911 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
You say you have sent your resume "a number of places". What is that number?
Thats the first thing I thought too. if a "number" means 10 there is a good chance you wouldn't hear anything.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-06-2007, 01:45 PM
volva yet's Avatar
volva yet volva yet is offline
Note Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Nomadic
Studying for GHC/DMAC
College: PSU '07
Favorite beer: Oskar Blues Old Chub Scotch Ale
Posts: 4,948
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Summer is a horrible time for entry-level actuarial recruitment. I was only getting pension offers. I stuck in there, though, and got what I wanted in the fall.
You're telling me... but the tides seem to be changing in regards to my own situation.
__________________
Exams
How to explain actuarial exams to someone else...

Good Einstein quote - "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-06-2007, 01:55 PM
jraven's Avatar
jraven jraven is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Hampshire
Studying for nothing!
College: Penn State
Posts: 1,309
Default

Based off the comments I've received here and via pm's it seems that, if there really is a problem, it's much more likely to be my resume/cover letter that's to blame. I'll spend some time reworking them and see what effect that has.

Thanks again for all the advice.
__________________
The Poisson distribution wasn't named after a fish -- it was named after a man ... who was named after a fish.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-06-2007, 01:56 PM
EaglesFan EaglesFan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,540
Default

As someone who has been in your position (not your exact position because I don't have a PhD), I can tell you that it is much harder to get a job as a career-changer then I had thought. Before I even started taking exams, I networked with a bunch of actuaries and went on a number (4-5) of informaitonal interviews and was told that IF it was shown that I could pass exams then I should in theory have no problem getting a job. It seemed to be like it would be a slam-dunk once I passed the 1st exam but when I had passed the 3rd and still hadn't generated a lot of interest I became very frustrated.

Part of the problem is that the people giving me that advice were not the same people who did the actual hiring and most of those people fill their spots via college math major/intern/entry-level route. They've even acknowleged as such and told me that they rarely seriously interview entry-level people who aren't College Seniors or recent graduates. It's not that they're opposed to career-changers, there is just no essential benefit or reason why they should take the extra time to look at them. I am now starting to make some headway, but it took a lot of networking, persistance, informational lunches and follow-up e-mails (not to mention time) to make it happen.

On another note, it's been VERY disapointing to me to see how many FSAs seem to be extraordinarly out-of-the-loop on the current exam process (How many exams are there now? What are VEEs exactly? Have you hit life contingicies yet [after being told I've passed P, FM & M?]).

If the current members of the SOA can't stay on top of the comings and goings of our profession then how are we ever going to transmit the value to the outside world.

EaglesFan


P.S.---The recruiters/HR people aren't much better. A few years back at a ojb fair, I was talking to an HR person at a major P/C company and told her that I had then just passed Exam P and she said that her company wouldn't see the value in that since they were P/C and asked their students to take CAS exams. I believe I found a nice way to explain that P was in fact the first exam for both. I wanted very much to ask how she could be recruiting entry level people at a job-fair without knowing that but decided that that wouldn't have really helped me achieve my personal objective
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-06-2007, 02:26 PM
Westley's Avatar
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 29,451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaglesFan View Post
On another note, it's been VERY disapointing to me to see how many FSAs seem to be extraordinarly out-of-the-loop on the current exam process (How many exams are there now? What are VEEs exactly? Have you hit life contingicies yet [after being told I've passed P, FM & M?]).

If the current members of the SOA can't stay on top of the comings and goings of our profession then how are we ever going to transmit the value to the outside world.
Why should we care what the current process is? I know who is running the system, and I trust them to ensure that the value of the credential is maintained at an appropriate level through rigorous E&E. Why does it matter to me if there's 10 exams, or 4 exams plus two seminars plus a project or whatever else is determined to be the best way to establish qualification. I think you are wildly underestimating the number of things FSAs have to keep tabs on. Why should I care what's on exams P, FM, and M? Couldn't possibly care less whether life con is on one of those - if I'm not talking to you, I know I passed life con, which is what matters; and if I'm talking to you, I can ask you if you passed it, which apparently is some big imposition on you, but honestly, I don't care.

I stay on top of the comings and goings of the profession and have no problem communicating my value to the outside world. I assure you that my value to the outside world has nothing to do with knowing the details of how VEE works.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-06-2007, 02:39 PM
Maine-iac's Avatar
Maine-iac Maine-iac is offline
Member
CAS SOA AAA
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: The Pine Tree State
Favorite beer: Wine
Posts: 35,802
Default

That may be a tad harsh. If I am going to be the actual manager for an actuarial student, and if his or her exam progress is one of the things I am evaluating this student on, then I have a responsibility to become familiar with the details of the current system. If I am choosing the candidate based in part on their progress to date, then I should know enough to be able to reasonably compare one candidate's progress against another's.

However, if I am interviewing you as part of a team interview and I do not have students reporting directly to me (e.g. I am the manager's boss), then Westley is correct, and I probably wouldn't bother keeping up with the ever changing details of the exam process.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-06-2007, 02:42 PM
EaglesFan EaglesFan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Why should we care what the current process is? I assure you that my value to the outside world has nothing to do with knowing the details of how VEE works.


Westley, as one has been an exective in the "outside world" I can assure you that you are quite wrong.

It seems from reading the AO boards that many bemoan the fact that their credential is not getting the respect they thought it would when trying to get jobs in pseudo-actuarial professions. As a "former outsider" who might have (don't think I ever did) had opportunity to interview acturies for said positions I can tell you that there is no chance that others will even understand (forget respect) the process that goes into the credential if the current actuaries themselves don't even care enough to keep track of the current requirements. And yes, I do think it hurts the profession and credential tremendously if current FSAs don't even know what a VEE is.

Lawyers keep track of changes on BAR admittance and doctors keep track of changes in board certification. They would expect actuaries to keep track of changes in their professional admittance as well (especially since tests are SUCH a big part of career advancement in our line of profession) and they would be greatly unimpressed with our current state.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-06-2007, 02:55 PM
atomic's Avatar
atomic atomic is offline
Member
CAS
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,088
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Why should we care what the current process is? I know who is running the system, and I trust them to ensure that the value of the credential is maintained at an appropriate level through rigorous E&E. Why does it matter to me if there's 10 exams, or 4 exams plus two seminars plus a project or whatever else is determined to be the best way to establish qualification. I think you are wildly underestimating the number of things FSAs have to keep tabs on. Why should I care what's on exams P, FM, and M? Couldn't possibly care less whether life con is on one of those - if I'm not talking to you, I know I passed life con, which is what matters; and if I'm talking to you, I can ask you if you passed it, which apparently is some big imposition on you, but honestly, I don't care.

I stay on top of the comings and goings of the profession and have no problem communicating my value to the outside world. I assure you that my value to the outside world has nothing to do with knowing the details of how VEE works.
Excuse me? How hard is it to remember which exams are jointly sponsored? How hard is it to know the number of exams? I don't expect to keep abreast of every last detail about E&E--that was not, in my opinion, the intent of the OP's message. Rather, I think that it is only common sense that whoever is involved in using exam criteria in making hiring decisions should know the basics of the most current exam requirements. Why would an interviewer or hiring manager ask applicants to list exams passed at the top of their resumes when they don't know what those exams mean?

And as a general point, this sort of "I got my credential, I have my own responsibilities, not-in-my-backyard" attitude is part of why the Societies struggle with controversial issues like cheating on FAP. The ability of the SOA to monitor FAP candidates and check for violations would be greatly improved if there were more resources available to do so.

I may not have my ACAS but even I understand the reality of the exam process and the collective obligation we have as present and future actuaries to the maintenance and advancement of our profession in a rapidly and ever-changing corporate marketplace. One is not done upon attainment of Fellowship. Education and the responsibility of membership are career-long processes. I find it disrespectful to those who make that effort to be involved in the function of the Societies to take the view that Fellows shouldn't keep abreast of the changes to E&E, just because they have other responsibilities.
__________________
Spoiler:
"No, Moslems don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Think of it like a movie. The Torah is the first one, and the New Testament is the sequel. Then the Qu'ran comes out, and it retcons the last one like it never happened. There's still Jesus, but he's not the main character anymore, and the messiah hasn't shown up yet.

Jews like the first movie but ignored the sequels, Christians think you need to watch the first two, but the third movie doesn't count, Moslems think the third one was the best, and Mormons liked the second one so much they started writing fanfiction that doesn't fit with ANY of the series canon."

-RandomFerret
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Westley's Avatar
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 29,451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaglesFan View Post
Westley, as one has been an exective in the "outside world" I can assure you that you are quite wrong.
So, my ability to know which VEE covers which topic on a series that I've never taken and never will determines my value? You have interesting theories. You can assure me that you understand the basis of my value, but you still don't.

That you were an executive high enough to hire actuaries and are now taking exams trying to become an entry-level actuary is an interesting story, but doesn't really add credibility to your savant-like knowledge of my value.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-06-2007, 03:16 PM
Westley's Avatar
Westley Westley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 29,451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic
Excuse me?
I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by westley
Why should we care what the current process is? I know who is running the system, and I trust them to ensure that the value of the credential is maintained at an appropriate level through rigorous E&E. Why does it matter to me if there's 10 exams, or 4 exams plus two seminars plus a project or whatever else is determined to be the best way to establish qualification. I think you are wildly underestimating the number of things FSAs have to keep tabs on. Why should I care what's on exams P, FM, and M? Couldn't possibly care less whether life con is on one of those - if I'm not talking to you, I know I passed life con, which is what matters; and if I'm talking to you, I can ask you if you passed it, which apparently is some big imposition on you, but honestly, I don't care.

I stay on top of the comings and goings of the profession and have no problem communicating my value to the outside world. I assure you that my value to the outside world has nothing to do with knowing the details of how VEE works.



As for the rest of your post,
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
whoever is involved in using exam criteria in making hiring decisions should know the basics of the most current exam requirements. Why would an interviewer or hiring manager ask applicants to list exams passed at the top of their resumes when they don't know what those exams mean?
That's a fair point. However, the post I responded to didn't say that applied to this subset. Moreover, he's not really in a position to even know who is reviewing the exam credentials - often, it's not the interviewer who screened resumes or the people at the job fair. I used to screen resumes a lot. I knew at the time what the exam system was. Now, I know that there's three VEEs and four exams that I care about, and the more the better. I don't need to make any cuts more accurate than that.

I would additionally say that, technically, I don't make hiring decisions based on exam criteria - ever. I make interview decisions based on exam criteria - and what was stated above is sufficient for that. I make hiring decisions based on interviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
I may not have my ACAS but even I understand the reality of the exam process and the collective obligation we have as present and future actuaries to the maintenance and advancement of our profession in a rapidly and ever-changing corporate marketplace. One is not done upon attainment of Fellowship. Education and the responsibility of membership are career-long processes. I find it disrespectful to those who make that effort to be involved in the function of the Societies to take the view that Fellows shouldn't keep abreast of the changes to E&E, just because they have other responsibilities.
I respect your viewpoint but fundamentally disagree. My responsibility is to pay my dues and meet Standards of Practice. Additionally, I offer advice and serve on committtees sometimes when I'm asked.

People like you tend to end up in very high positions in the Society, because of your attitude toward service and advancing the profession. While I applaud you for that, I don't share your sense of responsibility.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
*PLEASE NOTE: Posts are not checked for accuracy, and do not
represent the views of the Actuarial Outpost or its sponsors.
Page generated in 0.35829 seconds with 7 queries