Help understanding a call

[win diesel]

Originally Posted by nittany07

Win - just curious if you ever really attacked one of the sng software packages that are out there. I used sng-wizard for the month trial and found a couple leaks in my game. I should really spend the money to buy it but I got a good feel for the errors I was making.

Although not calling enough can be an error, I really don't think it's a common one. I think your statement should actually go the other way.

For example, even if someone told you that they were shoving any 2, there are many times where you are right to fold good hands (based on ICM).

After using the software, I was surprised at a lot of the situations that looked like you should obviously call (especially with ak) when ICM recommended a fold. Of course, it's all dependent on your opponent's calling/raising hand ranges and figuring them out is the difficult part of the game. But I see so many calls (like the one that's been discussed) that are just terrible based strictly on ICM.

I have SNG Power Tools. I was going to run some scenarios based upon your problem later tonight if I have time.

You are right in that usually players would tend to call too much as opposed to not enough. Sometimes 4 handed its correct to fold hands like QQ and AKs.

But in a 4 handed situation where its you vs another guy you could really deal a death blow to...I think its a greater play to gamble with him if you can as opposed to going for a first in vigorish vs big stacks.

[win diesel]

1) Okay, assuming the you the button is pushing:22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs

This is the positive ICM EV calling range for SB: Call hands: 44+,A9o+,A8s+ (11%)

Or I think your were tighter here and this is more like your range:44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+

Then his range shrinks again: Call hands: 77+,AQo+,AJs+ (6%)

On avg his equity goes to 6.4% after this call.

While I think the other factors lean towards call, I don't think it swings it enough. Ok, maybe not standard lol

Note: If you are pushing any two here this is the range interestingly enough:

Call hands: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q3o+,Q2s+,J6o+,J3s+,T7o+,T6s+,98o,97s+ ,87s (57%)


2) Now situation I was thinking of is if you have something like 1,180 and suspects you are pushing any two.

His call range: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J4o+,J2s+,T7o+,T4s+,97o+,96s+,86s+ (63%)

3) To some degree, I think these ranges take into account the stacks...but I still do not think it fully takes into account the "You win/ Other Guy Busts" factor.

[nittany07]

So I guess if he thought my shoving range was any 2, his call was reasonable.

But considering my range (which actually is more like 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ in this spot), this call is pretty bad.

11x bb is way too big to shove any 2 in this spot, especially considering sb is short and would have a slightly wider calling range.

What's your shoving range in my spot? I'm also curious as to what my shoving range calculates to if sb's range is top 50 and bb is top 10. I should go buy sngwiz.

[Stuff]

Originally Posted by nittany07

What's your shoving range in my spot?

I would shove any two

[A Student]

Somebody up there made a good/valid comment... If the short stack is short enough and goes all in from early position the people yet to play are more loose calling because there is a hesitancy to raise against an all-in (especially on the bubble). So the first-in benefit loses power when you're short stacked. His thinking might have been two live cards in a head's up situation against the next shortest stack is better than three or four way with two good cards. (that is dependent on him believing nobody else is likely to call the higher stack all-in on this hand)

[nittany07]

Originally Posted by Stuff

I would shove any two

Are you serious?

Even if sb and bb's calling ranges are only top 10% - I still think shoving any 2 is unprofitable with 11x bb(based on ICM). And I'd be fairly sure that sb's range is wider than 10%.

The more I think about my play, I bet if I ran the numbers, my shove with a9o would be unprofitable (or at least very marginal) based on a couple different calling ranges.

I really need to buy sng-wiz.

[Rhizome]

Originally Posted by Stuff

I would shove any two

I'm a little more selective and would fold 72, 73, 74o, 82-84, 92o, and 93o. I might also fold if both cards were red suits.

[Rhizome]

Originally Posted by nittany07

I really need to buy sng-wiz.

Poker stove and excel are free.

[nittany07]

Originally Posted by Rhizome

Poker stove and excel are free.

Yes but once you used sngwiz where you just import your hands, you'll never want to do it manually again.

(j/k) Where is this "free" Excel you speak of? I don't see it on the Dell website where I bought my laptop.

[win diesel]

Originally Posted by Rhizome

Poker stove and excel are free.

I don't think poker stove does the same thing. Excel? Of course its possible, seems like alot of work though lol

SNG Power Tools is like $60.