"Ideal" Entry Level Candidate???

[PrincessPenelope]

Originally Posted by ActuarialHeroOfTime

yea hes a funny guy isnt he? i liked the part about me being in the wrong major. gave me a real laugh. 3.3/4.0 is lousy? A-/B+ isnt good anymore? and id haveto say no my grades werent inflated as to increase everything an entire gpa point, that would be absolutely ridiculous, and if thats what happening at other schools, its a joke. How about the 'cocky geniuses' as you put it, who dont need to go to class, but still get As and Bs. Then the professor is IMPRESSED by you and says 'wow you did really well and i never see you in lecture' not everyone needs to be taught. its called independent study.

If they are getting As and Bs it's okay but I have never been impressed by this and I am positive that a lot of people in academia feel the same way. It just means you are not taking harder classes...you are not pushing yourself. AND nobody knows everything, so yeah everyone needs to be taught something...I understand that there is such thing as independent study...but even the brightest students have advisors that guide them in the right direction and who they can bounce ideas from.

On another note grade inflation does happen. In my school a GPA of 3.25 meant that you knew a lot of stuff and you worked hard and had a one or two topics that you knew very well. A GPA of 4.0 meant you were really smart and you did everything right. Like the difference between a B and a A was huge if it didn't click. After graduation, when I was looking for a job people were impressed with the 3.25 because they knew the school and the program. My first actuary boss went to the same school and she was impressed with it as well. Now if I had a 3.25 from a different school it may not have been the case. I can tell you for a fact that in engineering people say that a 4.0 from Clarkson is a 3.05 at RPI (the two are close enough geographically to be compared by employers). Nothing against Clarkson...it's just the way it is. My point is that this happens. A lot of people think that an "A" in calc at state school is the same as and "A" calc at an ivy. That is naive. I am not saying someone from the state school cannot possibly understand the material as well as someone who took it at an ivy, but that is the exception not the rule.

[johnny storm]

I'm trying to be helpful here, although it's tough.

Here's something to consider. You want actuaries to think highly enough of you that they choose to work with you. Yet this thread has 80 posts from actuaries that almost uniformly don't think highly of you, at all. If you want to work with actuaries, you might want to look at the things you've said in this thread and try to understand why they've had that reaction, just so you can avoid that in the future. Just a thought.

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by ActuarialHeroOfTime

yea hes a funny guy isnt he? i liked the part about me being in the wrong major. gave me a real laugh. 3.3/4.0 is lousy? A-/B+ isnt good anymore? and id haveto say no my grades werent inflated as to increase everything an entire gpa point, that would be absolutely ridiculous, and if thats what happening at other schools, its a joke. How about the 'cocky geniuses' as you put it, who dont need to go to class, but still get As and Bs. Then the professor is IMPRESSED by you and says 'wow you did really well and i never see you in lecture' not everyone needs to be taught. its called independent study.

OP, I want to give you some "wisdom" that I have found to be very valuable for myself. This is nothing new, so take it or leave it.

You are best off if you never, ever, ever make the assumption that you know more than those that have come before you. When giving an opinion, you should always remember that your perspective is incredibly limited, and in everything you say, you should always consider that you might have no idea what you're talking about.

[johnny storm]

Originally Posted by PrincessPenelope

A lot of people think that an "A" in calc at state school is the same as and "A" calc at an ivy. That is naive. I am not saying someone from the state school cannot possibly understand the material as well as someone who took it at an ivy, but that is the exception not the rule.

And by the way (with respect to grades), it's not always directionally obvious. Lots of grade inflation at Ivy League schools, too. What was the story about Princeton having 75% of its class graduate With Honors or something?

Not exactly pertinent to this thread, but I'm from Chicago, and lots of my friends have gotten MBAs from Chicago and Northwestern. That's two good schools, and I wouldn't really call one better than the other. At Chicago, the average for a class is capped at 3.25; so, if the prof has a class of 8 and wants to give out 2 As, he has to give everybody else Bs - if he wants to give out a third A, he has to give somebody a C. It's a big deal because some people going part time don't get reimbursed by employers for a C. On the other hand, Northwestern has no such cap, and it's no big deal to give an entire class As - every single person gets an A. So, you have two very different average grade profiles from schools that are attracting somewhat comparable students.

I'll also mention that the OP, unless he's attended other universities or attended UMass 10-30 years ago to give him a comparison point, has no idea whether grades are currently inflated or not. You don't have a comparison point, so you don't know what you're talking about. Another thing to avoid in interviews.

[PrincessPenelope]

Originally Posted by johnny storm

And by the way (with respect to grades), it's not always directionally obvious. Lots of grade inflation at Ivy League schools, too. What was the story about Princeton having 75% of its class graduate With Honors or something?

Not exactly pertinent to this thread, but I'm from Chicago, and lots of my friends have gotten MBAs from Chicago and Northwestern. That's two good schools, and I wouldn't really call one better than the other. At Chicago, the average for a class is capped at 3.25; so, if the prof has a class of 8 and wants to give out 2 As, he has to give everybody else Bs - if he wants to give out a third A, he has to give somebody a C. It's a big deal because some people going part time don't get reimbursed by employers for a C. On the other hand, Northwestern has no such cap, and it's no big deal to give an entire class As - every single person gets an A. So, you have two very different average grade profiles from schools that are attracting somewhat comparable students.

I'll also mention that the OP, unless he's attended other universities or attended UMass 10-30 years ago to give him a comparison point, has no idea whether grades are currently inflated or not. You don't have a comparison point, so you don't know what you're talking about. Another thing to avoid in interviews.

I had a friend that went to Harvard for pre-law and I remember him telling me he worked harder to keep his perfect GPA in hs. He said he learned a lot and I have no reason not to believe him. For me after freshmen year, I gave up on the idea of getting straight A's and just settled for the Dean's list.

I know my engineering degrees are worth a lot more in the north east than say Florida. Enough alumni (including myself i hope) have showed employers that people who go graduate from my school are good people to work with. That came at a premium (I pay for it every month). But everything does.

[MG]

Originally Posted by ActuarialHeroOfTime

How about the 'cocky geniuses' as you put it, who dont need to go to class, but still get As and Bs. Then the professor is IMPRESSED by you and says 'wow you did really well and i never see you in lecture' not everyone needs to be taught. its called independent study.

How often does this really happen? I don't think professors are usually impressed by students that routinely skip class, no matter what kind of whiz kids they are.

My husband is a college math professor. He generally does not have good things to say about students who miss class a lot. He mostly complains about students who come to him at the last minute wanting extra credit and other opportunities to make up points that they should have been earning by doing the homework, showing up to class, and asking him questions during the regular semester. I've never heard about any students who aced his class in spite of regular absences.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by ActuarialHeroOfTime

yea hes a funny guy isnt he? i liked the part about me being in the wrong major. gave me a real laugh. 3.3/4.0 is lousy? A-/B+ isnt good anymore? and id haveto say no my grades werent inflated as to increase everything an entire gpa point, that would be absolutely ridiculous, and if thats what happening at other schools, its a joke. How about the 'cocky geniuses' as you put it, who dont need to go to class, but still get As and Bs. Then the professor is IMPRESSED by you and says 'wow you did really well and i never see you in lecture' not everyone needs to be taught. its called independent study.

3.3/4.0 is a B+, not close to an A-. At my college they actually gave you a 3.3 for a B+ and a 3.7 for an A-.

I agree that 3.3 isn't a lousy GPA, but it certainly isn't anywhere close to "ideal candidate" levels. The absolute minimum standards for many companies is a 3.0 (some companies have higher minimums) GPA overall with the expectations that your GPA in your major should be higher. The fact is that you are a marginal candidate trying to get a job in a tough economy. No one guaranteed that marginal candidates would all get $60K jobs upon graduation. You screwed around early in your college career and now you're paying for it by having to work harder to get a job.

[nizzi]

Originally Posted by ActuarialHeroOfTime

How about the 'cocky geniuses' as you put it, who dont need to go to class, but still get As and Bs. Then the professor is IMPRESSED by you and says 'wow you did really well and i never see you in lecture' not everyone needs to be taught. its called independent study.

I did this for a few classes... showed up first day, midterm day and final day. I can tell you straight up the professors were clearly unimpressed and probably hated me. And even though I got a few A-'s from doing that, I did not go to sleep at night aftewards thinking wow i'm smart.

instead i sat around and thought about how big of a f*ck-up i am. even though i have a job now, and it probably wont matter in a few years, it was a stupid thing to do and no one is impressed

[Darkness Falls]

Originally Posted by nizzi

I did this for a few classes... showed up first day, midterm day and final day. I can tell you straight up the professors were clearly unimpressed and probably hated me. And even though I got a few A-'s from doing that, I did not go to sleep at night aftewards thinking wow i'm smart.

instead i sat around and thought about how big of a f*ck-up i am. even though i have a job now, and it probably wont matter in a few years, it was a stupid thing to do and no one is impressed

I've been doing this for 50% of my university classes and don't regret it. I learn better alone anyways. Hell I have a final in a couple hours (might need to start studying) where I didn't even bother showing up for the 1st class, just looked at the online stuff.

Now I doubt teachers would hate me for this attitude, since they barely acknowledge my existence. On the other if I went to those classes I would pretty much talk the whole time (what I do in the classes I actually go to). So ya I'm a bad student. Notwithstanding that fact, teachers do acknowledge that those students who can learn everything well at home and succeed don't really need to go to class.

Personally for me, other than the social part university is just a piece of paper. Other than my life con classes, I haven't really learned much there. Then again my school, pretty much just gives us the textbook in class, so the teachers could be replaced by PowerPoint slides if it wasn't for the annoying students who constantly ask questions.

[Dash.]

I felt the same way until my senior year and employment afterwards. I dual majored in Math & History, finished my math degree in the first 2 years in the manner you described, and finished my history degree in the next 1.5 years in the same way. Looking back, it's idiotic to pay as much as you do to go to college and not try to get all you can out of it. I have a much greater appreciation for the lectures (-especially- in history) and projects that I half-assed now than I did then.

Just throwing it out there, you can get straight A's in all of your math by skipping 50% of classes (I did), but in retrospect I doubt you get the same appreciation for the subject grinding it out of a book.

Originally Posted by Darkness Falls

I've been doing this for 50% of my university classes and don't regret it. I learn better alone anyways. Hell I have a final in a couple hours (might need to start studying) where I didn't even bother showing up for the 1st class, just looked at the online stuff.

Now I doubt teachers would hate me for this attitude, since they barely acknowledge my existence. On the other if I went to those classes I would pretty much talk the whole time (what I do in the classes I actually go to). So ya I'm a bad student. Notwithstanding that fact, teachers do acknowledge that those students who can learn everything well at home and succeed don't really need to go to class.

Personally for me, other than the social part university is just a piece of paper. Other than my life con classes, I haven't really learned much there. Then again my school, pretty much just gives us the textbook in class, so the teachers could be replaced by PowerPoint slides if it wasn't for the annoying students who constantly ask questions.