Does Believing In God = Being Religious?

[The Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by Aaron Brachowitz

"Persecuted" is probably overly strong. I do know that in most settings in this country today (particular among educated people, e.g. this forum), it's considered much more acceptable to denigrate religion and deny God than it is to praise religion and speak of the importance of your relationship with God.

Your statement shows a complete blindness to reality. Are you serious?

[The Mad Hatter]

Originally Posted by Michael Davlin

I'm opposed to any state getting involved in religious issues, but I am also of the opinion that my position is likely contrary to that of the Founding Fathers. For example, consider this excerpt from Thomas Jefferson's second inaugural address:

Jefferson is saying that the states did not grant the General Government (I like that term; it implies limits) any powers in regards to religion. However, as is clear in the clause I emphasized, he did allow for the possibility that religions might be regulated by the individual and sovereign states.

I guess TJ didn't understand the Constitution and the republican form of government as well as did later SCOTI (plural of SCOTUS?). More likely, as Anthony de Jasay aptly points out, our Constitution is but a chastity belt whose keys are always within reach.

The extension of the Bill of Rights to the states happened later. I believe the 14th Amendment was interpreted to imply the extension. Like it or not, that's the Law of the Land.

[Aaron Brachowitz]

Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter

Your statement shows a complete blindness to reality. Are you serious?

No. Wait, yes. Most workplaces and schools today are rigidly secular. You simply don't discuss religious beliefs at all, much less try to argue superiority or win converts. This would seem like a huge victory for atheism, to remove religion from vast segments of our lives, would it not? At the very least, it elevates atheism to equal status with Christianity or other religions by making all religious discussion (pro- or anti-) forbidden.

[Truth Soldier]

I can play the victim too.

In America it is next to impossible for a politiican to admit that he's an atheist. For some reason people think that you can only be a moral person if you believe in a particular god. As an atheist, I feel that people think it is better to be a bad person and have "faith" than be a good person and not believe.

The President of the United States, the leader of my country, frequently refers to God in his speeches. All our money has "In God we trust" on it and we have the expression "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. I am made to feel that there is something wrong with the fact that I don't believe in something that I have no evidence to believe in.

Sometimes I wonder how I manage to survive in this world.

[Michael Davlin]

Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter

The extension of the Bill of Rights to the states happened later. I believe the 14th Amendment was interpreted to imply the extension. Like it or not, that's the Law of the Land.

Historically, I agree with you. Interpretation has been the key to which de Jasay alludes. His broader point, which I think is sound, is that the Constitution has utterly failed in its original intended function (acting to chain the federal Leviathan to its limited delegated powers). The federal state itself decides what its powers are. Who guards the guardians? Nobody. It's a complete farce. It took a while, but it's over. The Fat BureauLady is singing. The Founders' thoughtful experiment in limited centralized government is a resounding flop.

Don't mistake the griping above as support for state intervention in religion. Freedom of silent thought is about the only absolute freedom we have left.

[Kepler!]

Originally Posted by Aaron Brachowitz

I do know that in most settings in this country today (particular among educated people, e.g. this forum), it's considered much more acceptable to denigrate religion and deny God than it is to praise religion and speak of the importance of your relationship with God.

No. Wait, yes. Most workplaces and schools today are rigidly secular. You simply don't discuss religious beliefs at all, much less try to argue superiority or win converts.

That is very much different than "denigrating religion and denying God." Where I work people don't discuss politics or abortion much either. None of this is banned in the work place. It's just the workplace is the wrong forum for these discussions and most people understand this.

This would seem like a huge victory for atheism, to remove religion from vast segments of our lives, would it not?

Religion has never been removed from my workplace. Christmas trees, cards, etc. are all over the place in December. People wear crosses and have pictures of Jesus on their desk. We just don't discuss it.

At the very least, it elevates atheism to equal status with Christianity or other religions by making all religious discussion (pro- or anti-) forbidden.

[Harry]

Originally Posted by Kepler!

That is very much different than "denigrating religion and denying God." Where I work people don't discuss politics or abortion much either. None of this is banned in the work place. It's just the workplace is the wrong forum for these discussions and most people understand this.

Religion has never been removed from my workplace. Christmas trees, cards, etc. are all over the place in December. People wear crosses and have pictures of Jesus on their desk. We just don't discuss it.

People really have pictures of Jesus on their desk at work? Interesting. Where do you work?

[Michael Davlin]

I have a question for our resident atheists. On a normal day, I'm unconvinced by arguments for (all of the traditional concepts of) God, so I would have to label myself an agnostic. On my sensitive days (few and far between), I have to confess a drift towards a rational deism.

It seems to me that to be a professed atheist you have to go beyond agnosticism's skeptism of pro-God arguments to a confident belief that you have confirmed the non-existence of God, or at least possess unrebutted arguments against God's existence.

Are you guys really that good? You are making me feel like a real wuss with my wimpy agnosticism. Let's hear some of your arguments / evidence disproving God's existence.

Oh, and if anybody can explain to me why there's anything at all rather than nothing, God or not, please chime in. That one's been bugging me since grammar school.

[Truth Soldier]

Originally Posted by Michael Davlin

Are you guys really that good? You are making me feel like a real wuss with my wimpy agnosticism. Let's hear some of your arguments / evidence disproving God's existence.

Oh, and if anybody can explain to me why there's anything at all rather than nothing, God or not, please chime in. That one's been bugging me since grammar school.

That's the hard question. That's the argument for god. I have no way of answering it.

I'm an atheist, however, with respect to the gods we "know" -- the Christian, Muslim, etc. gods. Why should I believe in any of them? To me, they're clearly historically cherished fantasies. And I say this as someone who was raised Christian. It eventually became a pain to always have to "reconcile" things with my religion.

[Polly Nomial]

In, I agree.

The term "god" is not well defined. If you are talking about the god that is described in any of the religious works, (bible, koran....) than I am an atheist. If you are talking about some unknowable force outside of our physical universe then I am an agnostic.