Jesus wedding shower on abc tonight

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

In other words, they would have knowledge to discern good from evil?

If you tell your kid don't have sex before it's time (or marriage, whatever), he says ok, does he really know what it means to have or not have sex? Say he doesn't, until he get married, he really knows what sex is like then, and may have avoided some pain and suffering that he would've had had he been sleeping around. But would he really understand what it means to have that pain and suffering, since he hadn't done it? He kind of knows, maybe, and is probably happy he didn't have to go that route, but he doesn't really know it.

Just as if a teenager reads all about sex, all the porns, even masterbates (I know it may not be all that kosher in a religious thread, hey maybe in any thread, but I'm a down-to-earth kinda guy, and dead honest too), does he really know what it means to have sex, until he does it?

Adam and Eve did not have a clue of what is evil (it did not exist in their eyes), and at that, did not know really what is good (in the sense that they had nothing to compare to). But they did have a command from God, Whom they loved, Who created them. They had a free will to obey or not to obey. They didn't obey. That's the extend of what the Scripture says. I'm uncomfortable to add or take away from it than what it says.

It's like if I say don't step into this box, it's a blackhole, you don't really know what a blackhole is (hey does any of us really), but if you step into it, you'd be sucked in, or it's like you've taken the matrix pill, you don't really know what you will know or see before you decide, but you do know you have a decision to make.

[Course 4 Escapee]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

To have a relationship with God--Who is Love.

You skipped my first 4 questions.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Six-time Course 4 Loser

You skipped my first 4 questions.

Sorry just got back from a meeting, just jumped to the end... have another meeting soon though. can't guarantee will go back...

[Course 4 Escapee]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

If you tell your kid don't have sex before it's time (or marriage, whatever), he says ok, does he really know what it means to have or not have sex? Say he doesn't, until he get married, he really knows what sex is like then, and may have avoided some pain and suffering that he would've had had he been sleeping around. But would he really understand what it means to have that pain and suffering, since he hadn't done it? He kind of knows, maybe, and is probably happy he didn't have to go that route, but he doesn't really know it.

Just as if a teenager reads all about sex, all the porns, even masterbates (I know it may not be all that kosher in a religious thread, hey maybe in any thread, but I'm a down-to-earth kinda guy, and dead honest too), does he really know what it means to have sex, until he does it?

Adam and Eve did not have a clue of what is evil (it did not exist in their eyes), and at that, did not know really what is good (in the sense that they had nothing to compare to). But they did have a command from God, Who they loved, Who created them. They had a free will to obey or not to obey. They didn't obey. That's the extend of what the Scripture says. I'm uncomfortable to add or take away from it than what it says.

It's like if I say don't step into this box, it's a blackhole, you don't really know what a blackhole is (hey does any of us really), but if you step into it, you'd be sucked in, or it's like you've taken the matrix pill, you don't really know what you will know or see before you decide, but you do know you have a decision to make.

In the absence of law, does sin exist? Therefore, if God didn't command not to kill, fornicate, etc. would we commit sin in the absence of those laws? You can't sin against something that doesn't exist. The only two laws we know God expressly gave Adam and Eve were to multiply and replenish the earth and to not eat of the forbidden fruit. Period.

Adam and Eve did not sin prior to eating the fruit. There is no scriptural reference to defend that assertion. You cannot sin unless you knowingly act against the explicitly decreed laws from God. Sin is a conscious decision to go against the will of God.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Six-time Course 4 Loser

In the absence of law, does sin exist? Therefore, if God didn't command not to kill, fornicate, etc. would we commit sin in the absence of those laws? You can't sin against something that doesn't exist. The only two laws we know God expressly gave Adam and Eve were to multiply and replenish the earth and to not eat of the forbidden fruit. Period.

Adam and Eve did not sin prior to eating the fruit. There is no scriptural reference to defend that assertion. You cannot sin unless you knowingly act against the explicitly decreed laws from God. Sin is a conscious decision to go against the will of God.

Now you've raised some interesting points. Right, I agree with you, Adam and Eve did not sin prior to eating the fruit. There was no sin, technically speaking, but there was evil (thus the serpent). but Adam and Eve did not know about that. What you've raised are separate issues. Sin came after the fall. But without the law (which eluciates the sin after the fall), we wouldn't really have our conscience pricked, because we would be steeped in sin (which tends to blind). However, because of the law, we are all condemned (the sin must be paid for God is Just). That's why Jesus, who gave us a higher law, instead of the law of sin and shame, his was the law of grace (it's a higher law, did not do away with the prior law, but fulfills it, it's in the Bible), is so freeing. But was not without a major price.

So I agree with ya, but they are kind of two issues.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

Supersonic, as a mathematician, you must understand how universally accepted fundamental principles are always challenged by someone. And their peers usually express their weariness in having to argue over them. A lot of the time, it is discovered that fundamental principles turn out not to be so fundamental. One example is that of Euclidean geometry. Based on five universally accepted postulates, we can derive all the laws governing flat geometry. But alter the last postulate (two parallel lines never meet), then we can open ourselves to the world of non-Euclidean geometry. Likewise, Einstein challenged Newton's basic principles of gravity and brought us Relativity. If these guys have taught us anything, it should be that fundamental principles aren't fundamental just because they are universally accepted.

So, I challenge you, supersonic, to find the hole in my logic. If you're too weary, I can understand. If you're up to the challenge, I'm up to it. I'm all tooth and nails. Anyone who knows me know that I am always challenging fundamental principles. I guess that's where I enjoy arguing the most.

True, except this one has been argued about forever, and I'm tired to argue about this, for I've also argued and pondered on this some time before, and have come to my conclusions. Now I'm retired, too old for this particular argument. In a way, I've already argued about it here actually.

By the way, I wouldn't call myself a mathematician. Just a goofball thank you.

[Paul Brand]

Originally Posted by Six-time Course 4 Loser

So why exactly did God create Adam and Eve? What is the purpose for His existence? Is it merely to get honor from faithful obedience? Doesn't that seem like hollow self-aggrandizement? How does our existence fit into the big picture?

1)To honor God through personal relationships with Him and faith.
2)Same as 1)
3)No. Honor through personal relationship chacacterized by love.
4)No.
5)Same as 1)

[Course 4 Escapee]

Originally Posted by Todd

1)To honor God through personal relationships with Him and faith.
2)Same as 1)
3)No. Honor through personal relationship chacacterized by love.
4)No.
5)Same as 1)

I guess I'm not being clear enough: why does God need to be honored? Since our being seems to be central to His existence, what is His raison d'etre? His wanting to be honored seems to be a bit detached and, in my opinion, an ancillary by-product of His true purpose.

[Sunny]

Originally Posted by Six-time Course 4 Loser

I guess I'm not being clear enough: why does God need to be honored. Since our being seems to be central to His existence, what is His raison d'etre? His wanting to be honored seems to be a bit detached and, in my opinion, an ancillary by-product of His true purpose.

That's why I focused my answer on LOVE. The bottom line.

[Mel-o-rama]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

True, except this one has been argued about forever, and I'm tired to argue about this, for I've also argued and pondered on this some time before, and have come to my conclusions. Now I'm retired, too old for this particular argument. In a way, I've already argued about it here actually.

By the way, I wouldn't call myself a mathematician. Just a goofball thank you.

I can understand being tired of arguing a specific point. At least we are communicating and seem to be understanding each other's arguments. That's the most we can hope for.

Originally Posted by todd

1) Yes. I think free will is essential in order to honour God. If we truly have free will, then we must also have the option of disobeying God.
2) We obey God because his will for our lives is better than our own. Also the penalty of sin is death. I personally don't find spiritual death desirable.

Todd, there's a paradox in there I'm trying to get you to see. In the "fallen" world scenario, Adam and Eve succumbed to a certain temptation to eat the fruit. In the "non-fallen" world scenario, even though Adam and Eve didn't succumb, that same temptation would still tempt their children. If all these children truly had the choice of disobeying God, someone would and that person would eat the fruit. Then the world would become "fallen". To say that no one would choose to eat the fruit would take some splaining. If no one ever chose to disobey God 100% of the time, that would imply that the choice to disobey God was never really there. Thus, no free will. And finally, no real honour to God.