What is Your Religion?

[actuary_pilot]

Originally Posted by TheGillotine

Don't quote-mine me. "You" in my post was referring to God (analogized). Unless you actually do give people permission to rape your children. Address the point.




But in a world with no God making things better for these children, doesn't that encourage people to help them in this life?

Sorry the way you said it i misinterpreted. To answer your question - I am not God and I do not have the ability to fix it once the act is done. So I would not give people the permission to rape my children.

I do believe that God has allowed wickedness for a period of time. He does have the ability to undo all of the injustice that was done to each individual. After wickedness is removed from the earth at Armageddon - I believe he will resurrect dead people and give them a fresh start - and all of the children who were raped (by wicked people) will have a chance at a renewed life in a paradise on the earth.

As for punishment for the wicked people who did rape children and do other bad things - I believe that God will destroy them - where they will be dead - just as we would put a rabid dog to sleep - so that they will not be able to harm others.

[V1per41]

Originally Posted by actuary_pilot

By the way I didn't say that God lives by different moral standards- that was someone else. I agree that torturing innocent people is never ok.

Sorry, probably should have made my post more clear, I didn't intend to insinuate that you had actually made that claim.

[Mel-o-rama]

Originally Posted by Anthemyst

This is a big part of why I ultimately concluded that the "faith" or "intuition" or "just knowing" that I felt so strongly about God was actually wishing. Certainly a world with a loving, powerful God is better than one without a loving, powerful God. But believing the world to be better doesn't make it so, and historically the promise of rewards after death has been a powerful tool to keep the poor and oppressed content with their meager lot in life. It encourages complacency, it is the enemy of progress.

I understand the first part you wrote. However, I slightly disagree with the "opiate of the masses" argument. The problem here is that historically, governments have used religion as a tool to suppress the masses. But I see this as a problem with governments and not with religion itself, while a lot of atheists will say: "Look at the Spanish Inquisition" or "Look at what happened when religion ruled during the Dark Ages."

In the case of the starving children, I believe that faith in God actually increases the chances of someone doing something about it. Who is it that you usually see out there trying to feed the hungry and asking for your funds to help? Isn't it all the churches?

[actuary_pilot]

Originally Posted by V1per41

Sorry, probably should have made my post more clear, I didn't intend to insinuate that you had actually made that claim.

no problem - a lot of people are saying a lot of things and it is hard to keep up with everyone.

[V1per41]

Originally Posted by actuary_pilot

Sorry the way you said it i misinterpreted. To answer your question - I am not God and I do not have the ability to fix it once the act is done. So I would not give people the permission to rape my children.

I do believe that God has allowed wickedness for a period of time. He does have the ability to undo all of the injustice that was done to each individual. After wickedness is removed from the earth at Armageddon - I believe he will resurrect dead people and give them a fresh start - and all of the children who were raped (by wicked people) will have a chance at a renewed life in a paradise on the earth.

As for punishment for the wicked people who did rape children and do other bad things - I believe that God will destroy them - where they will be dead - just as we would put a rabid dog to sleep - so that they will not be able to harm others.

Is this the first or the second death? If Yahweh exists then he seems to be pretty comfortable with letting these kinds of people live normal lengthed lives here on Earth.

[The Borg]

Originally Posted by actuary_pilot

But Hell (or Hades) is not the lake of fire...

Vs. 14 from the King James Version...

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The lake of fire is identified as the "second death". Death is the opposite of life.

There are several meanings that the English word hell can be used for, and the meanings have varied since KJV. So, I don't think that the distinction you're making is a good starting point for the annilihation argument.

At Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

The condition of the dead is that they have no knowledge nor device - no feelings. They are dead - and if they are thrown into the "lake of fire" they cant feel it since the are not conscious.

Ecclesiastes is referring to physical life on earth ('under the sun'), so it doesn't provide support with regards to the annilihation argument. There are better passages to choose from for annilihation.

[V1per41]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

I understand the first part you wrote. However, I slightly disagree with the "opiate of the masses" argument. The problem here is that historically, governments have used religion as a tool to suppress the masses. But I see this as a problem with governments and not with religion itself, while a lot of atheists will say: "Look at the Spanish Inquisition" or "Look at what happened when religion ruled during the Dark Ages."

In the case of the starving children, I believe that faith in God actually increases the chances of someone doing something about it. Who is it that you usually see out there trying to feed the hungry and asking for your funds to help? Isn't it all the churches?

The Red Cross. I know that it has been shown in studies that religious people give more to charity then non-religious. I have some doubts about the accuracy of such studies (I don't really count tithing as giving to charity), but I digress...
No one here (at least I didn't see it), is claiming that religious people aren't capable of doing good things. What the 'Spanish Inquisition' argument is meant to point out, is that, thanks to religion, you can get large amounts of otherwise good people to do very bad things. Rationality and critical thinking doesn't result in mass murder. -- and please don't anyone embarrass yourselves by bringing up state/character-worshiping regemes.

[Anthemyst]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

I understand the first part you wrote. However, I slightly disagree with the "opiate of the masses" argument. The problem here is that historically, governments have used religion as a tool to suppress the masses. But I see this as a problem with governments and not religion itself, while a lot of atheists will say: "Look at the Spanish Inquisition" or "Look at what happened when religion ruled during the Dark Ages."

In the case of the starving children, I believe that faith in God actually increases the chances of someone doing something about it. Who is it that you usually see out there trying to feed the hungry and asking for your funds to help? Isn't it all the churches?

Mostly Catholics

But, yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that overall religion makes people stop caring about the less fortunate. Obviously there are other parts of religion which do a great job of encouraging charity (Lovest thou me, feed my sheep, etc). I was really speaking to the very specific attitude of, "I can't stand the thought of suffering children, so I choose to believe that God exists and he will comfort them in the next life". I don't think it cancels out the drive to do good, but it does rub me the wrong way. And I agree that its history is due to the greed of man, not with religion inherently. But it is hard to ignore how easily one can be abused and twisted for selfish purposes by the other.

[Mel-o-rama]

Originally Posted by Anthemyst

Mostly Catholics

But, yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that overall religion makes people stop caring about the less fortunate. Obviously there are other parts of religion which do a great job of encouraging charity (Lovest thou me, feed my sheep, etc). I was really speaking to the very specific attitude of, "I can't stand the thought of suffering children, so I choose to believe that God exists and he will comfort them in the next life". I don't think it cancels out the drive to do good, but it does rub me the wrong way. And I agree that its history is due to the greed of man, not with religion inherently. But it is hard to ignore how easily one can be abused and twisted for selfish purposes by the other.

Okay - that makes more sense. I guess what I wrote does come off sounding like that.

Let me think some more on that. I still owe more stuff on Bye Bye's and MWTIGL's comments on miracles vs. free will...

[actuary_pilot]

Originally Posted by V1per41

Is this the first or the second death? If Yahweh exists then he seems to be pretty comfortable with letting these kinds of people live normal lengthed lives here on Earth.

I do believe that the lake of fire and Hades - which many translations of the Bible referrs to as Hell exist at the same time. The condition of the dead is the same in both places - dead and not alive. The second death I believe is a death from which there is no resurrection - which is final.

Some people who are wicked individuals who are not reformable - go straight into the lake of fire - the second death - again - not alive not being tortured - just dead. Non existance.


Other people who have died have gone into hades - people who were generally good people and people who were bad but reformable. The dead coming out of Hades occurs during the 1000 years in revelation 20 (first few verses). During this time everyone has a fresh start. All of the issues raised in the Garden of Eden have been answered - and during this time people are educated exactly in the way that God wants to be worshipped.

Hades is thrown into the lake of fire because there will not be a need for a resurrection like there is now.