What is Your Religion?

[Mel-o-rama]

On religion vs. charity, here's an interesting article that at least sounds like it knows what it's talking about and at first glance doesn't appear to be biased.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/p...w/article/6577

I haven't read the whole thing, but it does point out that the religious contribute more time/money than the non-religious even on "non-religious" causes (that is, not tithing and similar stuff).

[TheGillotine]

Originally Posted by actuary_pilot

Sorry the way you said it i misinterpreted. To answer your question - I am not God and I do not have the ability to fix it once the act is done. So I would not give people the permission to rape my children.

I do believe that God has allowed wickedness for a period of time. He does have the ability to undo all of the injustice that was done to each individual. After wickedness is removed from the earth at Armageddon - I believe he will resurrect dead people and give them a fresh start - and all of the children who were raped (by wicked people) will have a chance at a renewed life in a paradise on the earth.

As for punishment for the wicked people who did rape children and do other bad things - I believe that God will destroy them - where they will be dead - just as we would put a rabid dog to sleep - so that they will not be able to harm others.

How exactly is God fixing these things? In Job, he gives Job new wives, children, etc. But it doesn't seem to me that killing someone's children and replacing them with new children makes everything even.


And I want to go back to the logistics of miracles. Mel getting a feeling that he should turn left is very subtle, and I can understand how in a dualistic world that might work. But healing sick people, saving children from burning buildings, etc. are questions of material systems. How is God injecting someone with white blood cells? What force is God applying to protect someone?

I have my own ideas about how God interacts with the world, but I'm thinking of a very different God than you guys are.

[MyWifeThinksImGoodLooking]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

Another thing I wanted to bring up about the starving children. This is more along the intuitive arguments (with a hint of a Pascal's Wager variant)...

I must admit that I want to believe God exists, because if he does, the starving children get something. They may have to wait until the next life to get "compensation." Or God may find some way to comfort them today while they're experiencing the hunger. Either way, if God exists, then I know that he's got them covered.

If God doesn't exist, then the starving children are just out of luck. They get nothing. There is no better life for them after death. It's all survival of the fittest, and they got the raw end of the stick. There are no souls, and some people really are better than others. Life is unfair, etc., etc.

I admit that I don't want to believe that. I would rather hope that there is a God. And that's where the faith comes from (hope in things that can't be seen/known). As much as it feels "off" to some atheists that a loving God would allow suffering, it feels just as "off" to me that a world of suffering doesn't have a God that we can turn to.

I just offer this up, realizing it doesn't prove anything (except perhaps to point out that the existence of suffering doesn't logically imply the non-existence of God), but it still seems to be a good talking point on the intuitive side.

This whole conversation got started because you believe that theists do quite a bit of analytical thinking to come up with their beliefs. When you say something that is basically "I want to believe in God...So I do!", it kindof supports the atheist belief that theists don't think analytically about God.

[V1per41]

Originally Posted by Mel-o-rama

On religion vs. charity, here's an interesting article that at least sounds like it knows what it's talking about and at first glance doesn't appear to be biased.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/p...w/article/6577

I haven't read the whole thing, but it does point out that the religious contribute more time/money than the non-religious even on "non-religious" causes (that is, not tithing and similar stuff).

Skimmed it, but definitely an interesting read. Not surprised to see the gap narrow when the compared purely secular charities. A little surprised it wasn't more.

[V1per41]

Originally Posted by MyWifeThinksImGoodLooking

This whole conversation got started because you believe that theists do quite a bit of analytical thinking to come up with their beliefs. When you say something that is basically "I want to believe in God...So I do!", it kindof supports the atheist belief that theists don't think analytically about God.

Studies have shown that nearly all religious people say that they hold their particular religious beliefs because they they analyzed the data and have logically concluded that they have made the correct choice. They also believe that the reason most people are religious is because of things like "They were born into it", or "it just feels good"

So most people think that other people believe without critically thinking about their position. It doesn't matter whether you are religious or not.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I can imagine that most theists probably think that atheists just haven't looked at all the evidence, or haven't thought about it enough, because if they did, they would "see the glory of God". It's kind of the same thing on both sides. -- Obviously if you just had an open mind, and looked at all the evidence you would believe just like me -- Otherwise, why would they believe it?

[Anthemyst]

Originally Posted by TheGillotine

How exactly is God fixing these things? In Job, he gives Job new wives, children, etc. But it doesn't seem to me that killing someone's children and replacing them with new children makes everything even.


And I want to go back to the logistics of miracles. Mel getting a feeling that he should turn left is very subtle, and I can understand how in a dualistic world that might work. But healing sick people, saving children from burning buildings, etc. are questions of material systems. How is God injecting someone with white blood cells? What force is God applying to protect someone?

I have my own ideas about how God interacts with the world, but I'm thinking of a very different God than you guys are.

Do you (for this month, at least) believe God is limited in what kinds of miracles He can perform? With only power over thoughts or ideas, but not over physical reality (pretending for a minute that thoughts and ideas are somehow not products of physical reality)?

To be honest, I could get behind that God. I mean, I don't believe that God exists any more than I believe an all-powerful one does, but if He appeared to me and somehow convinced me I wasn't hallucinating and was like, "Hey, I need your help to make the world a better place! Do these things while I work on making people think nicer things!" I'd totally be on board.

[TheGillotine]

Originally Posted by Anthemyst

Do you (for this month, at least) believe God is limited in what kinds of miracles He can perform? With only power over thoughts or ideas, but not over physical reality (pretending for a minute that thoughts and ideas are somehow not products of physical reality)?

To be honest, I could get behind that God. I mean, I don't believe that God exists any more than I believe an all-powerful one does, but if He appeared to me and somehow convinced me I wasn't hallucinating and was like, "Hey, I need your help to make the world a better place! Do these things while I work on making people think nicer things!" I'd totally be on board.

No, I believe that God can change the world in whatever way She wants to. However, I don't face the same problem that Christians have because I don't think She's particularly interested in reducing suffering. She doesn't need to interact with the world, and probably doesn't want to because that would ruin the point. Although, if She did change something, I doubt you'd be able to tell.

[actuary_pilot]

Originally Posted by TheGillotine

How exactly is God fixing these things? In Job, he gives Job new wives, children, etc. But it doesn't seem to me that killing someone's children and replacing them with new children makes everything even.


And I want to go back to the logistics of miracles. Mel getting a feeling that he should turn left is very subtle, and I can understand how in a dualistic world that might work. But healing sick people, saving children from burning buildings, etc. are questions of material systems. How is God injecting someone with white blood cells? What force is God applying to protect someone?

I have my own ideas about how God interacts with the world, but I'm thinking of a very different God than you guys are.

Job will be resurrected along with all of his children.

God didn't kill Jobs children - but he allowed it to happen. There is a difference.

I don't believe that God is solving the problems you mention now. I believe that after Armageddon that he will solve the problems.

[Mel-o-rama]

Originally Posted by V1per41

Studies have shown that nearly all religious people say that they hold their particular religious beliefs because they they analyzed the data and have logically concluded that they have made the correct choice. They also believe that the reason most people are religious is because of things like "They were born into it", or "it just feels good"

So most people think that other people believe without critically thinking about their position. It doesn't matter whether you are religious or not.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I can imagine that most theists probably think that atheists just haven't looked at all the evidence, or haven't thought about it enough, because if they did, they would "see the glory of God". It's kind of the same thing on both sides. -- Obviously if you just had an open mind, and looked at all the evidence you would believe just like me -- Otherwise, why would they believe it?

Hey! I agree with this one!

[TheGillotine]

Originally Posted by actuary_pilot

Job will be resurrected along with all of his children.

God didn't kill Jobs children - but he allowed it to happen. There is a difference.

I don't believe that God is solving the problems you mention now. I believe that after Armageddon that he will solve the problems.

The Book of Job makes it clear that God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens to Job.

Originally Posted by Job 42:11

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him.