Mother, doctors excommunicated from church after 9 year old daughter's abortion

[FashionableFedora]

Originally Posted by Loner

Yeah, that really worked out for the nuns, whom the Pope just told, "Hey, less helping the poor and more scholding."

Nice blaming the victims there, which pretty much sums up the whole problem with a Church that essentially defines itself as not to be questioned.

Pretty sure it was more like "less heresy, more helping the poor." Nice revisionism though.

Not sure what these people are really "victims" of. The girl in the OP is obviously the victim of a rapist. Her parents and doctors? They committed an act that resulted in the murder of an innocent person, and as a result a bishop deemed that they are not in communion with Christ's church. It's not meant to be a punitive measure. Victims? I just don't see it. If you want to be in communion with Christ's Church, then choose the Path of Life, which says "thou shalt not procure an abortion, nor destroy an unborn child."

[Patience]

Originally Posted by FashionableFedora

It's not meant to be a punitive measure.

of course it is - it is akin to exile

[FashionableFedora]

Originally Posted by TheGillotine

Couldn't find a recent thread on Birth Control but I thought this statistic was interesting.
Link

82% of Catholics say contraception is morally acceptable, 89% of the general public.

Survey asked about birth control, not contraception. Birth control includes NFP and abstinence, both in line with Catholic teaching, so that 82% is a maximum. That aside though, public opinion doesn't determine truth, which is why the Church isn't run as a democracy. It could be 95% and that wouldn't make them right. FWIW though, here's another interesting poll. 56% of Catholics agree with the Bishops on the HHS mandate, which is pretty significant considering how many who call themselves Catholic have no real affiliation or regard for Catholic teaching.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152963/Co...ing-Women.aspx

[phoebe]

Originally Posted by FashionableFedora

Pretty sure it was more like "less heresy, more helping the poor." Nice revisionism though.

Not sure what these people are really "victims" of. The girl in the OP is obviously the victim of a rapist. Her parents and doctors? They committed an act that resulted in the murder of an innocent person, and as a result a bishop deemed that they are not in communion with Christ's church. It's not meant to be a punitive measure. Victims? I just don't see it. If you want to be in communion with Christ's Church, then choose the Path of Life, which says "thou shalt not procure an abortion, nor destroy an unborn child."

My friend was trying to work within the Church to improve the way the Church handles priests who are suspected of child abuse, and to improve the general practices of the Church to make it harder to commit child abuse within the auspices of the Church. My friend was not a victim of anything, rather, she was a faithful member of the flock who thought the church was going astray and needed to mend its ways.

As I said, she has given up on working with in the Church, and is seriously considering various Protestant sects, now. Her religious children have already become members of their local Episcopalian churches.

[FashionableFedora]

Originally Posted by phoebe

My friend, the 80 year old who is seriously considering leaving the Church for a Protestant sect, has done all these things. She has brought her grievances to the priest, and to the bishop, and been active in "The Voice of the Faithful". They have not been heard, and she feels that the Church has lost its way.

If your friend truly believes in one, holy, catholic, apostolic church, if she believes that Christ established his Church on earth and vested his authority in the Apostles, and the highest authority in Saint Peter, if she believes that the sacraments are necessary for a complete relationship with God, then I don't see how any issues of governance could convince her to apostasy. She may be devout, but I find it difficult to see how she could be a true believer and also an apostate at the same time.

If I could talk to her, my advice would be to continue to pray ernestly for the priests and the bishops, and also to continute to pray for her own humility.

[Patience]

Originally Posted by FashionableFedora

If your friend truly believes in one, holy, catholic, apostolic church, if she believes that Christ established his Church on earth and vested his authority in the Apostles, and the highest authority in Saint Peter, if she believes that the sacraments are necessary for a complete relationship with God, then I don't see how any issues of governance could convince her to apostasy. She may be devout, but I find it difficult to see how she could be a true believer and also an apostate at the same time.

If I could talk to her, my advice would be to continue to pray ernestly for the priests and the bishops, and also to continute to pray for her own humility.

too many people were praying when they should have been calling a cop

[FashionableFedora]

Originally Posted by Patience

of course it is - it is akin to exile

The intent is not to punish for the sake of punishment. The intent is to encourage reconciliation and rehabilitation. Also to discourage other members of the faithful from associating with a destructive element.

[FashionableFedora]

Originally Posted by Patience

too many people were praying when they should have been calling a cop

More worldly action in those cases would have been a positive of course. Not sure how it's relevant here, or how it implies less prayer is the answer.

[Patience]

Originally Posted by FashionableFedora

The intent is not to punish for the sake of punishment. The intent is to encourage reconciliation and rehabilitation. Also to discourage other members of the faithful from associating with a destructive element.

yes, but that is punitive. what you described is prison without the bars

not to punish for the sake of punishment

encourage reconciliation and rehabilitation

discourage .... associating with a destructive element

[Patience]

Originally Posted by FashionableFedora

More worldly action in those cases would have been a positive of course. Not sure how it's relevant here, or how it implies less prayer is the answer.

because people pray and believe they are doing something, they cleanse their conscience and the problems still exist.