If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Raschke

1) Nearly all successful people pay taxes that pay for the services mentioned. Most all also favor government for the services essential to their success.

Except that at the very top, where income is primarily from capital gains and various loopholes are available, they're underpaying for those services relative to their level of usage and benefits.

[ShebaPoe]

Originally Posted by mathmajor

Poor phrasing but I agree with the sentiment. I am not delusional or conceited enough to believe that my personal success was solely my doing. I am not angry or bitter that I need to pay taxes to maintain the benefits, opportunities, and protections that society offers.

I'm glad you all don't "need" government. Growing up, I did. I'm an upstanding contributor to society that would not be had society not offered a leg up. Honestly, get over yourselves.

There are two flaws in Obama's reasoning, and your agreement.

The big and obvious flaw in this reasoning is that it relies on the premise that ONLY with government at its current enormous size is an individual's success possible. This is silly and history proves that. A market economy can produce nearly all of the things from which I've benefited, for example, cars, planes, electricity. It is possible for individuals to benefit from others without omnipresent government. Obama's rhetoric discounts this.

The second and smaller flaw is that government itself produces nothing, and almost all of its revenue is derived from individual production. Therefore, increased production must precede increased government, meaning that increased production happened without increased government, so your reasoning contradicts itself.

[Happy Skunk]

Originally Posted by Incredible Hulctuary

Except that at the very top, where income is primarily from capital gains and various loopholes are available, they're underpaying for those services relative to their level of usage and benefits.

I am gaining more benefit from roads because I own a small business? BS, I commute to work once a day like everyone else. Unless I own a trucking service or something.

Roads are a basic infrastructure item that I have already paid tax for. What country in the world chooses not to have roads?

Should we also argue that business owners should pay more for park services because they get more benefit from the oxygen provided by the trees?

[Baron Von Raschke]

We should pay the trees themselves imo.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Incredible Hulctuary

Except that at the very top, where income is primarily from capital gains and various loopholes are available, they're underpaying for those services relative to their level of usage and benefits.

Take all this to its logical conclusion and for everything remotely feasible, we should change taxes to a fees for service structure. I don't think that's such a bad idea where feasible. Of course, then the next step is to force govt to live within their fees and allow private services to compete.

The article mentioned fighting fires. Is there any reason why firefighting can't be a private service just like garbage collection, cable TV, etc?

[Happy Skunk]

Originally Posted by Chuck

Take all this to its logical conclusion and for everything remotely feasible, we should change taxes to a fees for service structure. I don't think that's such a bad idea where feasible. Of course, then the next step is to force govt to live within their fees and allow private services to compete.

The article mentioned fighting fires. Is there any reason why firefighting can't be a private service just like garbage collection, cable TV, etc?

Firefighting used to be but there was this problem of them letting houses burn because they hadn't paid up.

But in your example, would Warren Buffet pay anymore for road service than me? He and I probably use roads the same.

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Originally Posted by Happy Skunk

I am gaining more benefit from roads because I own a small business? BS, I commute to work once a day like everyone else. Unless I own a trucking service or something.

You're relying on the roads to enable your customers and suppliers and employees to reach your business, in addition to your own ability to get there.

[jas66Kent]

Originally Posted by mathmajor

Poor phrasing but I agree with the sentiment. I am not delusional or conceited enough to believe that my personal success was solely my doing. I am not angry or bitter that I need to pay taxes to maintain the benefits, opportunities, and protections that society offers.

I'm glad you all don't "need" government. Growing up, I did. I'm an upstanding contributor to society that would not be had society not offered a leg up. Honestly, get over yourselves.

You're wasting your breath. I've talked about this and they just don't get it. They seem to think that the infrastructure that they enjoy every day is free and that the Govt. was not responsible for any of it. They have the worst sense of entitlement that I have ever seen in that regard.

I would love to drop these guys off in Somalia and then let them set up a business there. That's when they will realize just how they profit from our infrastructure.

To the wealthy business guy that set up a business, he profits from communications links, roads, police, fire services, the courts, patent offices, etc.. the list is endless. These are all public goods. Without them, he wouldn't have a prayer of having a succesful business.

In Somalia, there's pretty much none of that and a person could just walk into your shop, point a machine gun at you, and take everything you own. And there would be nothing that you could do about it.

The rule of law and security is something the Govt. provides and it's by far the most impiortant thing it gives citizens. i.e. The enforcement of property rights

That's what the succesful, wealthy businessman has received all of his life.

But again, these guys don't see that because they are pretty obtuse. Or just plain crazy

[Incredible Hulctuary]

Originally Posted by Happy Skunk

But in your example, would Warren Buffet pay anymore for road service than me? He and I probably use roads the same.

He might use them the same as you in direct personal mileage, but without those roads the businesses he invested probably wouldn't have been able to grow enough to make him a billionaire.

[ShebaPoe]

Gas taxes take care of road issues. Easy solution. Next question.