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  #121  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:53 PM
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krank krank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomer_tree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBridge
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Originally Posted by MNBridge
The teacher took his watch and put in in a box. He said the chance of the universe being like it is through 'luck' would be smaller than the chance of him taking his watch appart shaking the box and having it end up back together. At this I immediately thought "But the parts have to end up some way" and I could say the same thing about each of those ways. So you proved nothing.


Did you miss the point the Sunday School teacher was making here? The watch is not reall ya watch it's the ........ never mind.
The point was that random processes don't put a watch together. He uses this as an analogy to life on earth. Did you miss this? You counter that a random process will produce something guaranteed. I counter that while that is true, everything else you produce is meaningless. I believe this was implied by your Sunday School teacher. My point is that if this is the reason why you rejected theism, you didn't choose a very good reason.
I thought the point was that in the random process, the probability of getting a working watch is the same as the probability of any of the other possible configurations?
That was MN's point, which I countered above.
How so? How do you know that a random process can't put a watch together if all the parts are there?
It's funny. Atheists will argue how illogical an unreasoned religious people can be, and then I read stuff like this.

It's like saying that if I walk halfway to a wall, and then go halfway again, and then halfway again, etc. there are an infinite number of halves. Since I could never walk an infinite number of halves in my lifetime, I will never reach the wall.

It's nice logic, but it's simply wrong.

Shaking the parts of a watch will NEVER make a watch, if someone is evaluating this with any modicum of reason. It's not simply a matter of "all the parts landing in the right spot." It's about actual different actions that need to take place, such as screwing in the tiny screws, snapping on gears, whatever. There's this theoretical possibility that is simply, in practicality, a zero probablility.

Yet, you guys of the enlightened philosophical and scientific thought will argue basicall any point - no matter how ludicrous - to make yourselves happy.
If you purposely walk half way each time you will never get to the end. HTH
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  #122  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:56 PM
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krank krank is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Since we were dishing out one-liners, I thought what I wrote was appropriate. I'm not going to expend the energy of putting in countless hours answering your command. I don't ask you to prove that evolution alone is responible for the development of the human species. You can't prove it. No one has.
There is more evidence to suggest a process of evolution than any other theory.
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  #123  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:56 PM
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The Drunken Actuary The Drunken Actuary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomer_tree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBridge
The teacher took his watch and put in in a box. He said the chance of the universe being like it is through 'luck' would be smaller than the chance of him taking his watch appart shaking the box and having it end up back together. At this I immediately thought "But the parts have to end up some way" and I could say the same thing about each of those ways. So you proved nothing.


Did you miss the point the Sunday School teacher was making here? The watch is not reall ya watch it's the ........ never mind.
The point was that random processes don't put a watch together. He uses this as an analogy to life on earth. Did you miss this? You counter that a random process will produce something guaranteed. I counter that while that is true, everything else you produce is meaningless. I believe this was implied by your Sunday School teacher. My point is that if this is the reason why you rejected theism, you didn't choose a very good reason.
I thought the point was that in the random process, the probability of getting a working watch is the same as the probability of any of the other possible configurations?
That was MN's point, which I countered above.
How so? How do you know that a random process can't put a watch together if all the parts are there?
It's funny. Atheists will argue how illogical an unreasoned religious people can be, and then I read stuff like this.

It's like saying that if I walk halfway to a wall, and then go halfway again, and then halfway again, etc. there are an infinite number of halves. Since I could never walk an infinite number of halves in my lifetime, I will never reach the wall.

It's nice logic, but it's simply wrong.

Shaking the parts of a watch will NEVER make a watch, if someone is evaluating this with any modicum of reason. It's not simply a matter of "all the parts landing in the right spot." It's about actual different actions that need to take place, such as screwing in the tiny screws, snapping on gears, whatever. There's this theoretical possibility that is simply, in practicality, a zero probablility.

Yet, you guys of the enlightened philosophical and scientific thought will argue basicall any point - no matter how ludicrous - to make yourselves happy.
gomer, it's a bad analagy. Finding faults with the analagy is not the same as finding faults with the real thing.
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I think the dollar will crash irreparably by 2012.... bottom drops out of the dollar. ....Dollars are worthless, 401ks are bust, the markets are valueless...government assumes control over all industry and everything is nationalized by the end of 2012. - gomer_tree
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  #124  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by krank
If you purposely walk half way each time you will never get to the end. HTH
Is that because you believe he can't take an infinite number of steps, or is it because you believe that the sum of (1/2)^i for i = 1 to infinity is not equal to 1?
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  #125  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:58 PM
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Griffin 5 Griffin 5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Post-a-Lot
Finding faults with the analagy is not the same as finding faults with the real thing.
You've been in this forum for how long?
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Hear about the Chinese godfather? He made them an offer they couldn't understand.
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  #126  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by krank
If you purposely walk half way each time you will never get to the end. HTH
Is that because you believe he can't take an infinite number of steps, or is it because you believe that the sum of (1/2)^i for i = 1 to infinity is not equal to 1?
yes
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  #127  
Old 12-10-2004, 02:59 PM
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Paul Brand Paul Brand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Since we were dishing out one-liners, I thought what I wrote was appropriate. I'm not going to expend the energy of putting in countless hours answering your command. I don't ask you to prove that evolution alone is responible for the development of the human species. You can't prove it. No one has.
There is more evidence to suggest a process of evolution than any other theory.
Not quite. More evolutionary scientists have interpreted the evidence in favor of evolution more than any other theory. But, I'm not convinced that the number of evolutionary supporters gives sufficient credibility to make evolution provably true.
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  #128  
Old 12-10-2004, 03:00 PM
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krank krank is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Quote:
Originally Posted by krank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Brand
Since we were dishing out one-liners, I thought what I wrote was appropriate. I'm not going to expend the energy of putting in countless hours answering your command. I don't ask you to prove that evolution alone is responible for the development of the human species. You can't prove it. No one has.
There is more evidence to suggest a process of evolution than any other theory.
Not quite. More evolutionary scientists have interpreted the evidence in favor of evolution more than any other theory. But, I'm not convinced that the number of evolutionary supporters gives sufficient credibility to make evolution provably true.
If your looking for a 100% understanding then I agree. If you are looking for something in the order of 80-90% then I disagree.
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  #129  
Old 12-10-2004, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Post-a-Lot
Finding faults with the analagy is not the same as finding faults with the real thing.
I agree.
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  #130  
Old 12-10-2004, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomer_tree
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Originally Posted by krank
If you purposely walk half way each time you will never get to the end. HTH
Um...

The point is that you can measure an infinite number of halves, which leads to one theoretical conclusion, while the reality is that you do not need to walk it in such a way, thus disposing of a logical conclusion.

It may not be quite the same as the watch thing, but the point is the same. You can argue all you want about the logical probability that shaking the parts can make a watch, but any moron knows it really cannot happen.
you should edit your original post then that's not what you said at all.
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